A study of two Indian states show the top five percent are comparable to those from Norway, and India should have more high scoring students than any European nation that was tested. However the median/average fails the most basic international standards, with inequality comparable to South Africa with a history of racial discrimination.
Figures: 30% of hotels and motels in the US are Indian-owned 80% of Indian men are college-educated 45% of Indian women work outside the home. 65% of Indian men hold manager/professional jobs http://www.spindlepub.com/hbkindia/profile.htm 5/1998 Source: India: A Dynamic Democracy. A Government of India Publication. Also see Overrepresentation and awards and college @@britain BANGLADESHIS AT BOTTOM, INDIANS FROM UGANDA DO WELL \clip\97\05\unequal.txt The Economist February 8, 1997 Race relations Integrated but unequal "The greatest progress has been made by the many Asians who came to Britain in the 1970s after being expelled from Uganda. Many of these were well qualified when they arrived. They and their children are now as well represented as whites in managerial and professional jobs. Asians of Bangladeshi origin, on the other hand, typically have few qualifications and are often unemployed or in low-paid jobs. " @@Cheating There are rumours that Indians come from a "low trust" society and are more likely to engage in fraud than westerners, along with other Asians. Editor does not endorse such positions, but presents them for your own consideration. 3/2000 La Griffe du LionIndia certainly has a large number of highly intelligent people, but major questions remain about the Indian masses. India has never participated in PISA.
Agreed: Indians cheat like hell and Asians may lack imagination, but our system of justice does not recognize Bayes theorem as evidence when deciding whether some professor at TAMU ripped off the University. 3/2000 Chris Brand wrote: >Mass cheating by Indian students in their 'universities' is legendary. -- Only recently rivalled by Edinburgh LUniversity where 117 computing science students were found guilty of exam fraud [via computer] in 1999. The strongly familial orientation of Asians is agreed by such distinguished social scientists as Frances Fukuyama and Deepak Lal. (See e.g. McDougall NewsLetters, Summer '99.)Psychiatrist Prof. Morris Carstairs [eventually Principal of Univ. York], who grew up in India, attributed the problem to overindulgent breastfeeding followed by dramatic termination of same. The lack of independence-of-mind found in Asia has been remarked by English historian Hugh Thomas and in my own writings (e.g. http://www.crispian.demon.co.uk/RUSHRV.htm).< Jerry says: In my software venture capital work I have run across many more >stories of East Indians acting unethically than of white Americans. >(Small numbers/non-random samples, etc.) >Many Asian societies are described as "Low Trust". That is, how you >are treated depends much more on whether you are "family" or "not >family" than in "High Trust" business cultures such as that of the >United States. @@high tech z47\clip\2001\01\indsil.txt Richard Russell is a highly regarded level-headed investment guru who has written for Barron's for decades: "Richard's Remarks: Word document: Dow Theory Letters January 19, 2001 Did you know that 50% of all the new start-ups in Silicon Valley are led by Indians?" http://www.seattletimes.com/news/business/html98/masa_20000213.html z39\clip\2000\02\indent.txt Copyright © 1999 The Seattle Times Company Business News : Sunday, February 13, 2000 India.net: Microsoft, cultural ties link Indian immigrants leading online ventures by Gordon Black Seattle Times technology reporter Infospace.com and other internet india high tech success stories from Seattle @@Demographic (begin) From Steve Sailer http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2008/05/19/indian-iq-part-1-diaspora-demographics/ An iSteve commenter calling himself Rec1man has built a model of potential Indian average IQ based on IQ scores of the Indian diaspora in various countries more affluent than India. This seems like a plausible approach, so I’ve been discussing it with him via email and now I’m going to begin posting it. I want to break my posting of Rec1man’s model up into several stages, because, in my experience, it’s easy for a reader to skip right to the bottom line of a complex model and accept or reject it as a whole, and then get invested in defending one’s initial reaction. His is necessarily a complicated model because the Indian diaspora is extremely heterogeneous due to the caste system in India and the different selection filters for Indian immigrants in diaspora countries. Thus, for example, the average caste level of the Indian diaspora in the U.S. is much higher than in former British tropical colonies where the British were looking to import diligent peasants rather than computer programmers. So, Rec1man has come up with estimates of the demographics of the Indian diaspora by caste for each country. India: Brahmins, 5% Upper Castes, 15% Backward Castes, 40% Muslims, 15% Dalits [Untouchables] and Tribals, 25% Indians in the U.S.A. US Brahmins, 25% US forward castes, 50% US backward castes, 25 in UK: Forward caste 60% Backward caste 40% Pakistanis in UK are all [descended from] backward castes [who converted to Islam]. In Pakistan, few forward castes and brahmins and dalits converted to islam. They remained hindu and went to Indian Punjab Pakistanis in Pakistan are [by descent] Forward caste, 10% Backward caste 80% and dalit 10% Bangladeshis in UK are Backward caste 50% Dalit 50% Similarly, Bangladeshis in Bangladesh are Backward caste 50% Dalit 50% Razib of GNXP.com comments: US Brahmins, 25% US forward castes, 50% US backward castes, 25% this looks skewed to me. around 50% of indians in the USA are gujaratis, mostly patels. about 25% are punjabis, often sikhs, who mostly be from jats (i think they’re classified as backward, but i don’t know, i think it depends on region and stuff). the other 25% are mixed up with various groups; a lot of these are brahmins, but not all. for example, christians from kerala are way overrepresented, and they’re derived from non-brahmins by and large. i think a brahmin figure on the order of 15% is more realistic. backward caste depends on how you classify it, since south indian non-brahmins are all technically “lower caste,” but i think kerala christians are considered forward. in short, bump up the forward caste number, and lower the brahmin and backward. most of other numbers look OK, but i think a lot of the muslim classifications are by their nature guess work. i have no idea how backward and forward caste in bangladesh is assigned here. 90% of people in bangladesh are now muslim, and most of the hindus remaining are low caste groups who couldn’t or wouldn’t move to india for whatever reason. the general consensus is most bangladeshi muslim were non-forward caste peasants, as is true of hindus in west bengal. the only thing with bangladeshis in the UK is something like 90% are from one region of bangladesh, syhlet, but i doubt that makes a big difference in your assessment…. (end) @@disadvantaged \doc\95\11\whybrad.txt "Why Bradford Burned" Economist June 17, 1995 p. 60 Bangladeshi and Pakastani Asians rioted, have highest unemployment rates in this england town. \doc\95\07\sasian2.txt - response that Asians in Britain don't do very well in educational system, but some Indians do well @@dravidian .. says "the south Indian Dravidians produce all the hi-tech of India." DEN]Z SELGUK ft4568 yahoo.com @@history Date sent: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:03:22 -0500 [Pete Belmonte writes:] According to Reed Ueda (in Postwar Immigrant America: A Social History), between 1899 and 1924, 8,200 immigrants came from India to the US. In the Immigration Act of 1917, Congress created the Asiatic Barred Zone, an area from which no laborers could immigrate, and India was in the Zone. In 1946, immigrants from India were again allowed into the US. I wonder whether many Indians came to the US through England in the 19th century. Also, were they counted as English, Indians, Asians, etc? Date sent: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:44:27 -0500 [R. Scott Hanson writes:] According to the entry for "East Indians" by Joan M. Jensen in the _Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups_, the first such immigrant came in 1820 (and there was only one). The source cited is a table entitled "East Indian immigration to the United States, 1820-1976" from the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service, _Annual Report_, 1976 (Washington, D.C., 1977), pp. 86-88. By "East Indian" the author mainly means South Asian Indians from the present-day Republic of India or their descendants. The six-page entry notes that fewer than 17,000 came before 1965, and only 700 (mainly from northern India, and from the Punjab in particular) during the 19th century. A short bibliography at the end of the entry points to other sources. Karen Isaksen Leonard, a professor of Anthropology at UC-Irvine, has written a fascinating book on the early Punjabi agricultural workers in California entitled _Making Ethnic Choices: California's Punjabi Mexican Americans_ (Philadephia: Temple Univ. Press, 1992). Another excellent source which focuses on the post-1965 immigration is Raymond Brady Williams, _Religions of Immigrants from India and Pakistan: New Threads in the American Tapestry_ (Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1988). R. Scott Hanson Committee on the History of Culture University of Chicago Date sent: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:53:21 -0500 Send reply to: H-NET List on Ethnic History From: Josef Barton Subject: Re: QUERY: First American from India To: Multiple recipients of list H-ETHNIC [Megan Hutching writes:] Regarding Pete Belmonte's query about Indians being counted as English, Indians, Asians, etc, something which may have some relevance (although only tangential) is that when the New Zealand government was thinking of passing anti-Asian immigration laws at the end of the 19th century, they were dissuaded from the attempt because the law, which would have had to get royal consent, was unlikely to do so as the term 'Asian' included people from India, i.e. fellow citizens of the British empire. The British would not agree to an immigration law from one part of the empire which discriminated against a citizen from another part. I think this was the same for Australian attempts to pass similar legislation. (By the way, the laws which were finally passed in NZ were only discriminatory against Chinese.) _________________________________________________________ Megan Hutching + 64 4 494 0631 Megan.Hutching at dia.govt.nz Fax: + 64 4 495 7212 Oral Historian Historical Branch Department of Internal Affairs/Te Tari Taiwhenua, P.O. Box 805, Wellington, NEW ZEALAND http://www.dia.govt.nz/ (look under 'Structure') @@hotel asian.indian.hotel hu: \priv\96\13\asinam.htm web: http://www.marketingtools.com Asian-Indian Americans by Marcia Mogelonsky August 1995 American Demographics In 1994, 7,200 Asian-Indian owners operated 12,500 of the nation's 28,000 budget hotels and motels, according to the Atlanta-based Asian American Hotel Owners Association. @@language asian.indian.language hu: \priv\96\13\asinam.htm web: http://www.marketingtools.com Asian-Indian Americans by Marcia Mogelonsky August 1995 American Demographics Although 68 percent of Asian Indians aged 5 and older speak a language other than English, only 21 percent do not speak English very well. India has nearly 1 billion residents separated into 25 states and 7 union territories, speaking 15 official languages. hu: C:\priv\96\13\INDBABEL.HTM web: http://www.marketingtools.com The Indian Tower of Babel by Marcia Mogelonsky August 1995 American Demographics Asian-Indian immigrants to the U.S. share the same mother country, but this doesn't mean they understand each other. India's constitution recognizes a total of 15 official languages, and a recent Indian census tabulated more than 500 mother tongues spoken within the nation's boundaries. @@Movie AMERICAN DESI FULL OF ASIAN INDIAN IN-JOKES z48\clip\2001\03\desiam.txt Film Review: An Indian-American comedy Tuesday, 20 March 2001 13:11 (ET) STEVE SAILER, UPI National Correspondent LOS ANGELES, March 20 (UPI) [American Desi] South Asia Indians are the highest income ethnic group in America. Yet, Americans pay so little attention to Indian immigrants that the federal government lumps Indians with Chinese and Japanese. The camera focuses in on a dim-looking white boy. He glances at the lean and hungry Indian on his right, then at the equally intense Chinese guy on his left...as the doomed Euro-American realizes his inevitable fate. America has been brain-draining the intellectual cream from the billion people of India. Indians tend to have a leg up over their East Asian immigrant rivals for technology jobs because most speak some English upon arrival. @@population asian.indian.population, national hu: \priv\96\13\asinam.htm web: http://www.marketingtools.com Asian-Indian Americans by Marcia Mogelonsky August 1995 American Demographics As of 1990, the Asian-Indian population in the United States numbered 815,000, up 111 percent from 387,000 in 1980. The Pakistani population increased fivefold in the 1980s, from 16,000 to 81,000. Almost 12,000 people identified themselves as Bangladeshi in the 1990 census, up from a miniscule 1,300 in 1980. asian.indian.population, city hu: \priv\96\13\asinam.htm web: http://www.marketingtools.com Asian-Indian Americans by Marcia Mogelonsky August 1995 American Demographics Asian Indians by city 1. New York City 106,000 1.2% 2. Chicago 54,000 3. Los Angeles-Long Beach (44,000) 4. Washington, D.C. (36,000). Highest concentration Middlesex-Somerset-Hunterdon, New Jersey 2.3% the largest concentration of any metro area. Jersey City metro. 2.1% California most numerous state. @@programmer 1 in 4 programmers worldwide from Indian \clip\97\26\indiprog.txt MASTERING SOFTWARE HELPS INDIA YOUTHS SNAG FOREIGN JOBS @@race The indians are actually dark-skinned caucasians, but they are from the continent of Asia, from a social, economic, cultural and historical standpoint, they have many similarities to Asian races such as the Chinese, and share traits such as high income, high education, low rates of single parenthood, and high academic achievement. from jtran at fit.edu: according to _The History and Geography of the Human Genes_ they are considered a caucasoid race Here's a review of the book from Mankind Quarterly (warning, this appears to be from the human races as distict / IQ might be related school of thought) http://www.cycad.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/Library/Miller/genetic- history.html Map: http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~jonmarks/hgdpmap.html @@skin color Jpark discusses whether darker skin Indians in south are actually the smarter ones with more high tech industry, even if light skinned ones still have higher status. @@survey http://www.capaa.wa.gov/resources.html Washington CAPAA Nov 2000 newsletter has nice history background z48\clipim\2001\02\13\November2000v1i4.pdf http:// www.spindlepub.com/hbkindia/profile.htm Handbook for Asian Indians - 1997-1998 Heritage Edition - India: Fact Book for Children Profile of Asian Indians in the U.S.A. \clip\98\09\asindian\asindian.htm hu: \priv\96\13\asinam.htm web: http://www.marketingtools.com Asian-Indian Americans by Marcia Mogelonsky August 1995 American Demographics The Asian-Indian population of the U.S. is affluent and growing. Asian Indians often work as professionals and entrepreneurs. Marketers divide the group into three segments, but all Indians are keenly interested in financial security, good value, and shopping around. Although Asian Indians assimilate easily into U.S. culture, the best way to reach them is to support their communities and traditions. \doc\95\07\sasian.txt - collection of data on South Asians that show that they rank about the top of all US ethnic groups doc\94\17\priv\indicolr.txt - SJM 8/7/94 Indians in South Africa doc\95\05\indian1.txt ,2,3.txt Series on East Indians in North America @@TIMSS test @@PISA test SAILER SAYS LOTS OF SMART INDIANS, BUT MASSES ARE ANOTHER QUESTIONS http://www.vdare.com/sailer/101219_pisa.htm
However, a version of the similar TIMSS international math test was given to a sample of Indian students in the states of Orissa and Rajasthan, as reported in a 2009 paper by Jishnu Das of the World Bank and Tristan Zajonc of Harvard, India Shining and Bharat Drowning: Comparing Two Indian States to the Worldwide Distribution in Mathematics Achievement. On average, the Indians performed poorly: "These two states fall below 43 of the 51 countries for which data exist." Note, though, that India was the second-most internally unequal country on TIMSS, behind only South Africa.From the "drowing" study: " The median enrolled child in these two states is a failing child, in that, 42 percent of enrolled children in Rajasthan and 50 percent in Orissa fail to meet a basic international low-benchmark of mathematical knowledge. Children enrolled in secondary schools in these two Indian states are 3.1 (OECD) standard deviations below the OECD mean. Since secondary enrollment in India is below that of other countries in the TIMSS study, the performance of the median child is almost certainly considerably worse. At the same time, the top 5 percent of performers perform far better than their other lowincome country counterparts and place respectably even compared to some high-income countries such as Norway. The distribution of test scores is the second most unequal in the world after South Africa with its particular history of discrimination. To the extent that the story from these two states is similar to other states in the country, India is shining even as Bharat—the vernacular for India—is drowning.
We show that in absolute terms, India has just under half the number of 14-year olds who pass the advanced international benchmark as the United States—100 thousand compared to 250 thousand—and roughly the same number who pass the intermediate 3 international benchmark. Indeed, India has more top achievers than any European country tested, which, although not surprising given India’s size, helps explain India’s visible position on the international stage. But another view is also sustainable. The average child scores far below any reasonable curricular standard and the median child in these two states is failing