Asian Indians/ South Asians

Asian Indians are the only Asian ethnic group that consistently outranks the Jews on socio-economic measures and academic awards, if not politics. Unlike the Chinese, the Indians come largely already knowing English and western culture. While there are some Indians on the margins, overseas Indians have remarkable incomes, education, and social statistics. Technically, they are racially similar to caucasians, but they do come from the Asian continent, and have a culture and history similar to East Asian "orientals".

A study of two Indian states show the top five percent are comparable to those from Norway, and India should have more high scoring students than any European nation that was tested. However the median/average fails the most basic international standards, with inequality comparable to South Africa with a history of racial discrimination.

30% of hotels and motels in the US are Indian-owned
80% of Indian men are college-educated
45% of Indian women work outside the home.
65% of Indian men hold manager/professional jobs 5/1998
Source: India: A Dynamic Democracy. A Government of India Publication.

Also see Overrepresentation
and awards
and college


\clip\97\05\unequal.txt The Economist February 8, 1997 Race relations
Integrated but unequal "The greatest progress has been made by the
many Asians who came to Britain in the 1970s after being expelled
from Uganda. Many of these were well qualified when they arrived.
They and their children are now as well represented as whites in
managerial and professional jobs. Asians of Bangladeshi origin, on
the other hand, typically have few qualifications and are often
unemployed or in low-paid jobs. "


There are rumours that Indians come from a "low trust" society and
are more likely to engage in fraud than westerners, along with other
Asians. Editor does not endorse such positions, but presents them for
your own consideration.

3/2000 La Griffe du Lion  Agreed: Indians
cheat like hell and Asians may lack imagination, but our system of
justice does not recognize Bayes theorem as evidence when deciding
whether some professor at TAMU ripped off the University.

3/2000 Chris Brand  wrote: >Mass cheating by
Indian students in their 'universities' is legendary.  -- Only
recently rivalled by Edinburgh LUniversity where 117 computing
science students were found guilty of exam fraud [via computer] in
1999. The strongly familial orientation of Asians is agreed by such
distinguished social scientists as Frances Fukuyama and Deepak Lal.
(See e.g. McDougall NewsLetters, Summer '99.)Psychiatrist Prof.
Morris Carstairs [eventually Principal of Univ. York], who grew up in
India, attributed the problem to overindulgent breastfeeding followed
by dramatic termination of same. The lack of independence-of-mind
found in Asia has been remarked by English historian Hugh Thomas and
in my own writings (e.g.<

Jerry says: In my software venture capital work I have run across many more 
>stories of East Indians acting unethically than of white Americans. 
>(Small numbers/non-random samples, etc.)
>Many Asian societies are described as "Low Trust".  That is, how you 
>are treated depends much more on whether you are "family" or "not 
>family" than in "High Trust" business cultures such as that of the 
>United States. 

@@high tech

z47\clip\2001\01\indsil.txt Richard Russell is a highly regarded
level-headed investment guru who has written for Barron's for
decades: "Richard's Remarks: Word document: Dow Theory Letters
January 19, 2001 Did you know that 50% of all the new start-ups in
Silicon Valley are led by Indians?"
z39\clip\2000\02\indent.txt Copyright © 1999 The Seattle Times
Company Business News : Sunday, February 13, 2000
Microsoft, cultural ties link Indian immigrants leading online
ventures by Gordon Black Seattle Times technology reporter and other internet india high tech success stories 
from Seattle


From Steve Sailer
An iSteve commenter calling himself Rec1man has built a model of
potential Indian average IQ based on IQ scores of the Indian diaspora
in various countries more affluent than India. This seems like a
plausible approach, so I’ve been discussing it with him via email and
now I’m going to begin posting it.

I want to break my posting of Rec1man’s model up into several stages,
because, in my experience, it’s easy for a reader to skip right to the
bottom line of a complex model and accept or reject it as a whole, and
then get invested in defending one’s initial reaction.  His is
necessarily a complicated model because the Indian diaspora is
extremely heterogeneous due to the caste system in India and the
different selection filters for Indian immigrants in diaspora
countries. Thus, for example, the average caste level of the Indian
diaspora in the U.S. is much higher than in former British tropical
colonies where the British were looking to import diligent peasants
rather than computer programmers.

So, Rec1man has come up with estimates of the demographics of the
Indian diaspora by caste for each country.

Brahmins, 5%
Upper Castes, 15%
Backward Castes, 40%
Muslims, 15%
Dalits [Untouchables] and Tribals, 25%

Indians in the U.S.A.
US Brahmins, 25%
US forward castes, 50%
US backward castes, 25

in UK:
Forward caste 60%
Backward caste 40%

Pakistanis in UK are all [descended from] backward castes [who converted to Islam].

In Pakistan, few forward castes and brahmins and dalits converted to islam. They remained hindu and went to Indian Punjab

Pakistanis in Pakistan are [by descent]

Forward caste, 10%
Backward caste 80%
and dalit 10%

Bangladeshis in UK are

Backward caste 50%
Dalit 50%

Similarly, Bangladeshis in Bangladesh are
Backward caste 50%
Dalit 50%

Razib of comments:

US Brahmins, 25%
US forward castes, 50%
US backward castes, 25%

this looks skewed to me. around 50% of indians in the USA are
gujaratis, mostly patels. about 25% are punjabis, often sikhs, who
mostly be from jats (i think they’re classified as backward, but i
don’t know, i think it depends on region and stuff). the other 25% are
mixed up with various groups; a lot of these are brahmins, but not
all. for example, christians from kerala are way overrepresented, and
they’re derived from non-brahmins by and large. i think a brahmin
figure on the order of 15% is more realistic. backward caste depends
on how you classify it, since south indian non-brahmins are all
technically “lower caste,” but i think kerala christians are
considered forward. in short, bump up the forward caste number, and
lower the brahmin and backward.

most of other numbers look OK, but i think a lot of the muslim
classifications are by their nature guess work. i have no idea how
backward and forward caste in bangladesh is assigned here. 90% of
people in bangladesh are now muslim, and most of the hindus remaining
are low caste groups who couldn’t or wouldn’t move to india for
whatever reason. the general consensus is most bangladeshi muslim were
non-forward caste peasants, as is true of hindus in west bengal. the
only thing with bangladeshis in the UK is something like 90% are from
one region of bangladesh, syhlet, but i doubt that makes a big
difference in your assessment….

\doc\95\11\whybrad.txt "Why Bradford Burned" Economist June 17, 1995
p. 60  Bangladeshi and Pakastani Asians rioted, have highest
unemployment rates in this england town.

\doc\95\07\sasian2.txt - response that Asians in Britain don't
do very well in educational system, but some Indians do well


.. says "the south Indian Dravidians produce all the hi-tech of
India."  DEN]Z SELGUK ft4568


Date sent:                Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:03:22 -0500
[Pete Belmonte  writes:]
According to Reed Ueda (in Postwar Immigrant America: A Social History),
between 1899 and 1924, 8,200 immigrants came from India to the US.  In the
Immigration Act of 1917, Congress created  the Asiatic Barred Zone, an area
from which no laborers could immigrate, and India was in the Zone. In 1946,
immigrants from India were again allowed into the US.
I wonder whether many Indians came to the US through England in the 19th
century.  Also, were they counted as English, Indians, Asians, etc?

Date sent:                Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:44:27 -0500
[R. Scott Hanson  writes:]

According to the entry for "East Indians" by Joan M. Jensen in the
_Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups_, the first such immigrant
came in 1820 (and there was only one). The source cited is a table
entitled "East Indian immigration to the United States, 1820-1976" from
the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service, _Annual Report_, 1976
(Washington, D.C., 1977), pp. 86-88. By "East Indian" the author mainly
means South Asian Indians from the present-day Republic of India or
their descendants. The six-page entry notes that fewer than 17,000 came
before 1965, and only 700 (mainly from northern India, and from the
Punjab in particular) during the 19th century. A short bibliography at the
end of the entry points to other sources.

Karen Isaksen Leonard, a professor of Anthropology at UC-Irvine, has
written a fascinating book on the early Punjabi agricultural workers
in California entitled _Making Ethnic Choices: California's Punjabi
Mexican Americans_ (Philadephia: Temple Univ. Press, 1992).

Another excellent source which focuses on the post-1965 immigration is
Raymond Brady Williams, _Religions of Immigrants from India and Pakistan:
New Threads in the American Tapestry_ (Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press,
R. Scott Hanson
Committee on the History of Culture
University of Chicago

Date sent:                Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:53:21 -0500
Send reply to:    H-NET List on Ethnic History 
From:             Josef Barton 
Subject:               Re: QUERY: First American from India
To:               Multiple recipients of list H-ETHNIC 

[Megan Hutching  writes:]

Regarding Pete Belmonte's query about Indians being counted as English,
Indians, Asians, etc, something which may have some relevance (although
only tangential) is that when the New Zealand government was thinking of
passing anti-Asian immigration laws at the end of the 19th century, they
were dissuaded from the attempt because the law, which would have had to
get royal consent, was unlikely to do so as the term 'Asian' included
people from India, i.e. fellow citizens of the British empire.  The British
would not agree to an immigration law from one part of the empire which
discriminated against a citizen from another part. I think this was the
same for Australian attempts to pass similar legislation.

(By the way, the laws which were finally passed in NZ were only
discriminatory against Chinese.)

Megan Hutching                           + 64 4 494 0631
Megan.Hutching at          Fax: + 64 4 495 7212
Oral Historian
Historical Branch
Department of Internal Affairs/Te Tari Taiwhenua,
P.O. Box 805, Wellington, NEW ZEALAND  (look under 'Structure')


hu: \priv\96\13\asinam.htm web:
Asian-Indian Americans by Marcia Mogelonsky August 1995 American
Demographics In 1994, 7,200 Asian-Indian owners operated 12,500 of
the nation's 28,000 budget hotels and motels, according to the
Atlanta-based Asian American Hotel Owners Association. 


asian.indian.language hu: \priv\96\13\asinam.htm web: Asian-Indian Americans by Marcia
Mogelonsky August 1995 American Demographics Although 68 percent of
Asian Indians aged 5 and older speak a language other than English,
only 21 percent do not speak English very well.  India has nearly 1
billion residents separated into 25 states and 7 union territories,
speaking 15 official languages. 

hu: C:\priv\96\13\INDBABEL.HTM web: The
Indian Tower of Babel by Marcia Mogelonsky August 1995 American
Demographics Asian-Indian immigrants to the U.S. share the same
mother country, but this doesn't mean they understand each other.
India's constitution recognizes a total of 15 official languages, and
a recent Indian census tabulated more than 500 mother tongues spoken
within the nation's boundaries. 


z48\clip\2001\03\desiam.txt Film Review: An Indian-American comedy
Tuesday, 20 March 2001 13:11 (ET) STEVE SAILER, UPI National
Correspondent LOS ANGELES, March 20 (UPI) [American Desi] South Asia
Indians are the highest income ethnic group in America. Yet,
Americans pay so little attention to Indian immigrants that the
federal government lumps Indians with Chinese and Japanese.  The
camera focuses in on a dim-looking white boy. He glances at the lean
and hungry Indian on his right, then at the equally intense Chinese
guy on his the doomed Euro-American realizes his inevitable
fate.  America has been brain-draining the intellectual cream from
the billion people of India. Indians tend to have a leg up over their
East Asian immigrant rivals for technology jobs because most speak
some English upon arrival.


asian.indian.population, national
hu: \priv\96\13\asinam.htm web:
Asian-Indian Americans by Marcia Mogelonsky August 1995 American
Demographics As of 1990, the Asian-Indian population in the United
States numbered 815,000, up 111 percent from 387,000 in 1980.  The
Pakistani population increased fivefold in the 1980s, from 16,000 to
81,000. Almost 12,000 people identified themselves as Bangladeshi in
the 1990 census, up from a miniscule 1,300 in 1980. 

asian.indian.population, city
hu: \priv\96\13\asinam.htm web:
Asian-Indian Americans by Marcia Mogelonsky August 1995 American
Asian Indians by city
1. New York City 106,000 1.2%
2. Chicago 54,000
3. Los Angeles-Long Beach (44,000)
4. Washington, D.C. (36,000).

Highest concentration
Middlesex-Somerset-Hunterdon, New Jersey 2.3% the
largest concentration of any metro area. 
Jersey City metro.  2.1%
California most numerous state.


1 in 4 programmers worldwide from Indian


The indians are actually dark-skinned caucasians, but they are from
the continent of Asia, from a social, economic, cultural and
historical standpoint, they have many similarities to Asian races
such as the Chinese, and share traits such as high income, high
education, low rates of single parenthood, and high academic

from jtran at according to _The History and Geography of the
Human Genes_ they are considered a caucasoid race

Here's a review of the book from Mankind Quarterly (warning, this appears
to be from the human races as distict / IQ might be related school of 
thought) history.html

@@skin color

Jpark discusses whether darker
skin Indians in south are actually the smarter ones with more high
tech industry, even if light skinned ones still have higher status.

Washington CAPAA Nov 2000 newsletter has nice history background

Handbook for Asian Indians - 1997-1998 Heritage Edition - India: Fact
Book for Children Profile of Asian Indians in the U.S.A. 

hu: \priv\96\13\asinam.htm web:
Asian-Indian Americans by Marcia Mogelonsky August 1995 American
Demographics The Asian-Indian population of the U.S. is affluent and
growing. Asian Indians often work as professionals and entrepreneurs.
Marketers divide the group into three segments, but all Indians are
keenly interested in financial security, good value, and shopping
around.  Although Asian Indians assimilate easily into U.S. culture,
the best way to reach them is to support their communities and

\doc\95\07\sasian.txt - collection of data on South Asians
that show that they rank about the top of all US ethnic

doc\94\17\priv\indicolr.txt - SJM 8/7/94 Indians in South Africa

doc\95\05\indian1.txt ,2,3.txt Series on East Indians in North America

@@TIMSS test
@@PISA test


India certainly has a large number of highly intelligent people, but major questions remain about the Indian masses. India has never participated in PISA.

However, a version of the similar TIMSS international math test was given to a sample of Indian students in the states of Orissa and Rajasthan, as reported in a 2009 paper by Jishnu Das of the World Bank and Tristan Zajonc of Harvard, India Shining and Bharat Drowning: Comparing Two Indian States to the Worldwide Distribution in Mathematics Achievement. On average, the Indians performed poorly: "These two states fall below 43 of the 51 countries for which data exist." Note, though, that India was the second-most internally unequal country on TIMSS, behind only South Africa.

From the "drowing" study: " The median enrolled child in these two states is a failing child, in that, 42 percent of enrolled children in Rajasthan and 50 percent in Orissa fail to meet a basic international low-benchmark of mathematical knowledge. Children enrolled in secondary schools in these two Indian states are 3.1 (OECD) standard deviations below the OECD mean. Since secondary enrollment in India is below that of other countries in the TIMSS study, the performance of the median child is almost certainly considerably worse. At the same time, the top 5 percent of performers perform far better than their other lowincome country counterparts and place respectably even compared to some high-income countries such as Norway. The distribution of test scores is the second most unequal in the world after South Africa with its particular history of discrimination. To the extent that the story from these two states is similar to other states in the country, India is shining even as Bharat—the vernacular for India—is drowning.

We show that in absolute terms, India has just under half the number of 14-year olds who pass the advanced international benchmark as the United States—100 thousand compared to 250 thousand—and roughly the same number who pass the intermediate 3 international benchmark. Indeed, India has more top achievers than any European country tested, which, although not surprising given India’s size, helps explain India’s visible position on the international stage. But another view is also sustainable. The average child scores far below any reasonable curricular standard and the median child in these two states is failing