More from Matt Feder From: MattNF@aol.com Date sent: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 01:07:46 EST Subject: Catholics, Jews, and Indians To: arthurhu@halcyon.com The picture for Catholics is a little different in Canada. It's important to note that a much higher proportion of Canadian Catholics are foreign-born, for example a full quarter of Italian-Canadians are. Then, there's French-Canadians, who are kind of an oppressed minority, although certainly less so than in the past. The Canadian census tracks religion. In 1981, Protestants were well ahead of Catholics in terms of educational attainment, but by 1991, that difference had shrunk substantially. Certainly, Canadian Catholics have enjoyed much upward mobility. And as you can see from the figures, young Italian- and Polish-Canadians do very well in terms of educational attainment. Eastern Orthodox (mainly of Greek or Ukrainian origin - Greeks are largely a postwar group, nearly all Ukrainian-Canadians are native-born and most live in the Prairies) Canadians have improved the most, the biggest decline was for Hindus. Hindus were up there with Jews in 1981, but their educational attainment has gone way down. I can give you these figures if you like. Jews are considered both an ethnic and religious group in Canada, so it is much easier to get figures for Jews. They're on top in terms of education, occupational status, and income. Japanese-Canadians rank second best overall. I'd be a little cautious about calling Indians the winners in the race for super minority. Certainly, first-generation Indian Americans are an exceptional group, but that's mainly due to a very strict immigration policy. I looked at figures for native-born Indian Americans, and I was pretty shocked by what I found. Only about a third native-born Indian Americans have college degrees. So that stereotype of "rich WASPs having everything handed to them on a silver platter and doing far worse than their parents because all they did was party through high school," may actually be more true for Indians. That really surprises me, I've always found the smartest people in many of my classes to be Indian. My friend's brother, a third-generation Sikh, was the top student in UBC biology, and was given early acceptance to med. school in Ontario, without even finishing his undergrad. Chinese Americans seem to hold steady, or do slightly better, in the second generation. Indians are also a very young group, with only 5 percent 65 and older, compared to about one-fifth of North American Jews. Among ages 25-44 in 1990 (born 1946 to 1965), "Russians" and Indians do the best, both with over 60 percent holding college degrees, with Chinese close behind. So let me know where you've put the info I've gave you. And good luck in your run for office. Matt From: MattNF@aol.com Date sent: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 01:23:36 EST Subject: Native-born vs. foreign-born Indians and Chinese (educational attainment) To: arthurhu@halcyon.com Indian Americans (age 25 and older) % college degree Native-born 44.0 Foreign-born 58.5 Chinese Americans (age 25 and older) % college degree Native-born 51.0 Foreign-born 38.7 From: MattNF@aol.com Date sent: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:34:16 EST Subject: Re: Ivy League Research To: arthurhu@halcyon.com When was that survey conducted? If Jews are 27 percent of the Ivy League, then that's much more than 10 times overrepresentation. Jews are 2 percent of the US population, but only 1.5 percent of the college-age population. My figures are from the 1999 Hillel Guide to Jewish Life on Campus. Jews are 22.5 percent of Ivy League undergrads, and 27.7 percent of Ivy League graduate students. So for undergrads, that's 15 times. Asians are about 4 percent of the college-age population, vs. 16 percent of Ivy League undergrads. So for Chinese, it's probably 8 times overrepresenation. Chinese are about 1 percent of the population. The reason the Italians due so poorly is because they're not from the old WASP elite, so they don't have "legacy" quotas to benefit from, and affirmative action is hurting Italians because they're not a "disadvantaged group" (and they aren't, they're one of the most affluent groups in the US). So they get unfairly screwed over. Groups shouldn't be penalized for doing too well. Imagine if there was a 2 percent Jewish quota for doctors! I don't see any reason for any school to have quotas for the children of alumni. They're probably advantaged enough to survive if they don't get into Harvard. If they got rid of those, the representation of Asians, Catholic ethnic groups, and white Southern Baptists would increase significantly. And blacks and Latinos and Native Americans would still be represented at the same rate. I don't have figures for gay Jews. But what I do know of, what you might find interesting, is the Jewhoo (i.e. yahoo) website, that provides a huge list of famous Jews. It's http://jewhoo.com. I From: MattNF@aol.com Date sent: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:31:41 EST Subject: My full name To: arthurhu@halcyon.com Yes, my name is Matt Feder. Is the stuff I gave you on your website now? Where is it? I think getting data on Irish or Polish ancestry would be a very difficult task. The only reason I've got Italians was because one of the big Italian-American ethnic organizations conducted a study. They're very interested in discrimination. And I think there is a lot of discrimination against Italians. Almost every Italian character on TV or in the movies is either involved in crime or is just a lovable idiot or something. Years ago, an Ivy League professor once joked "if Italians aren't really an inferior race, they're certainly doing a good job pretending to be." Imagine if he had said that about blacks. This is not saying that blacks don't suffer discrimination, far from it, and its effect is far worse. But that doesn't make anti-Italianism ok. Notice that in many Ivy League towns (New Haven, Providence) there's a huge blue-collar Italian population around (who tend to resent those snobbish Ivy Leaguers I'm sure), but very few Italians on the elite campus, that probably reinforces the stereotypes. The Italians fare even worse among faculty, less than 1 percent. The Irish are completely assimilated, except in places like South Boston. Instead of hating Yankees, they've become Yankees. Andrew Greeley's research shows Irish Catholics to be the most affluent and the most politically liberal white Gentile group, though he didn't include Greeks, who are doing extremely well. In both the US and Canada, the Greeks probably win for the award for upward mobility. So I would imagine that Irish Catholics do pretty well, and have been assimilated long enough to benefit from legacy quotas. Polish organizations are pretty quiet, but I would imagine they're in a similar position to Italians. Census figures for Poles are deceiving because the Polish ancestry category includes many Jews - most Jews are of Russian or Polish origin. Apparently, Jewish comedians started the jokes about "dumb Pollacks." Gosh, would I love to get a figure for the number of Jewish comedians. Sorry if this is getting excessive. Matt