+OK 24260 octets Received: from smtp11.nwnexus.com (smtp11.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by mail3.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA06128 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 09:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by smtp11.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03028 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 09:18:44 -0700 Received: (from csahq@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id ENHJENTK; Sat, 09 Oct 1999 12:14:28 EDT To: arthurhu@halcyon.com Subject: Re: Evolutionist Fantasy? Message-ID: <19991009.115902.-28609.5.CSAHQ@juno.com> References: <199910072036.NAA01636@mail4.halcyon.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-21,26-35,40-58,65-66,75-79,83-85,87-88,93-100, 109-110,112-113,119-132,135-153,160-161,167-181,186-191,193-199, 201-208,210,212,214,216,221-227,233-250,252-256,258-537 From: Tom F Willis Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 12:14:28 EDT Status: Boy do you place your faith is some bizzare things. See below. Tom Willis Creation Science Association for Mid-America On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 13:35:00 -0600 writes: >Obviously there a few things you don't believe in ... >I've attached my latest time line at the bottom . > >On 1999-10-06 csahq@juno.com said: > >Worse than rambling this time Hu. More like babble. > >There are no dating methods for geologic events unless a witness > >recorded them. Hu claims:> >That's clearly wrong, you can use tree rings, ice cores, coral >rings to date fairly recent volcano eruptions. It's a matter of >your FAITH that disallows you from "believing" in dating methods, >given the huge number of different ways you can establish that >lots of things are older than 6,000 years. Answer: Do you really even know how "tree rings" are used for dating? Do you really believe ice cores can be used for dating? How, except by faith that each layer is annual. In a period of high volcanism, there could be hundreds of ashfalls per year, and hundreds of large snowfalls per year. What goes up usually comes down, and what goes up from volcanos is lots of water. > >We know that the dam ruptured after the flood > >because most of the canyon walls are clearly flood sediments, Hu claims:>> >These are sediments that thousands of scientists have established >are very, very old, the oldest laid down nearly 2 billion years >ago. Answer: Yes, and by rubidium/strontium isochron dating the top layer which is supposed to be only thousands of years old, was dated at older that the strata below the Cambrian, well over a billion years old. If the volcanos in historic time can make 1.3 billion year old rocks, imagine what your faith can do with really old rocks. > > >the dam rupture probably occured during, or shortly after the ice > >age, which has been clearly demonstrated to have lasted no more > >than a few hundred years. Hu claims:>> >What's the evidence and timing of the ice age if it is within the >past 6000 years? Evolution science says the latest ice age started 2 >million years ago and didn't stop until about 10,000 years ago. It >was long ago enough that Wooly Mamoths and saber tooth tigers, and >prehistoric man lived during the ice age. The ice age is not >mentioned in the bible, by the way, and elephants do _not_ give birth >to mammoths, which are just as extinct as the dinosaurs. Unlike >dinosarus, C14 CAN reliably date mammoth bones, which proves that >mammoths are older than 6,000 years old, and that dino bones are much >older than the 30,000 year dating limit of C14 (otherwise there still >would be lots of C14 left in those bones) Answer: Only the Bible gives a credible scenario for an ice age. Evolutionists cannot really get an ice age started. An ice age is not really super cold, it just has lots of unmelted snow in a colder climate. But the key is lots of snow, which means lots of evaporation from the ocean. A cold climate will cool the ocean in less than 600 years. Cold ocean = no evaporation = no snow. Any summer at all will melt some snow. Short time -- no ice age. The Bible paints a picture of an ideal climate, terminated by "the fountains of hte great deep bursting forth,,, and rain." This initial breaking of the earth's crust would be followed by many years of crustal instability, thus many volcanos. There are over 20000 of them. Thus, for a short time, you have a WARM OCEAN, and a cold climate (from volcanic ash shielding us from the sun), thus you have a short ice age after the flood. Maybe 600 years. Lots of volcanoes and lots of snow = lots of ashfalls in the snow. The snow remaining that we can see is mostly in Antartica. What do we see? Lots of snow, lots of ashfalls. Hu claims:>>> The ice age is not >mentioned in the bible, by the way, Answer: You are wrong about the Bible and the ice age. In Job, a book full of science assertions, we read "Out of whose womb came the ice?" Job lived in Turkey, after, or near the end of the ice age, which had many advances and retreats. Hu claims:>> and elephants do _not_ give birth to mammoths, which are just as extinct as the dinosaurs. Answer: What a silly thing for you to claim. You believe that fish give birth to reptiles. How can you say with a straight face that elephants do not give birth to mammoths? I suppose bull dogs did not come from dogs? There is much more difference between various breeds of cannis familiaris (dogs) than there is between elephants and mammoths. Hu claims:>> Unlike dinosarus, C14 CAN reliably date mammoth bones, which proves that mammoths are older than 6,000 years old, and that dino bones are much older than the 30,000 year dating limit of C14 (otherwise there still would be lots of C14 left in those bones) I'm afraid you wrong Hu. Lots of dinosaur bones have carbon in them, bone, bone protein and even dinosaur blood. Carnege museum has a brass placque to the effect that their Diplodocus has bone. Seismosaurous digger, David Gillett admitted in Jr. of Physical Anthropology that he had BONE and BONE PROTEIN. Dinosaur Jack Horner even has blood, right where it belongs, in the vessels inside bones. At the Nebraska ashfall site (supposedly 10 million years old). We asked the site demigod, Michael Vorhees of NU why he didn't Carbon Date them. He admitted that he could, but refused. Creationists have got lots of dinosaur bones with lots of bone in them. There IS C14 in it and they WILL date it. Stand by. The reason dinosaur bones are not dated is NOT lack of C14, it is committment to millions of years. A perfect example is yourself. You are obviously quite ignorant of what has actually been found, yet you were quite confident and simply announced that dinosaur bones were too old to date. You are wrong. And you have based your world view, that is your religion on such information. > >Of course you do not believe in the flood, but in slow deposition >of > >those sediments in ancient seas. While I am answering your > >questions, you try some. > > >1. There are enormous fossils in Grand Canyon sediments. How did > >boulders the size of houses land in the middle of a calm sea? Hu claims:>>> >There all kinds of ways to move rocks such as glaciers, geologists >know this stuff. No magic needed. Answer: This is nonsense Hu. There are no glacial deposits in the sediments in Grand Canyon rocks. If there are so many ways to move house-sized boulders in a calm sea, try again. > >2. How did ammonites 3 feet long get fossilized in calm seas? In > >far less than the proposed 2000 years to bury them, they would >have > >dissolved. Please give me a scientific theory for this very >common > >phenomenon. Hu claims:>> >You ever seen a live ammonites? Fossils tell us they died out with >the dinosaurs 64M years ago based on the sediments they were found >in. They lived in the sea, so they could not have died with the flood >which killed only land creatures. All kinds of things get fossilized, >that's a fact, scientists have figured out dating of the sediments >based >on what's on top, and various dating of various other rocks to put >together >the entire puzzle. > Answer: Boy are you scraping the bottom of the barrel. I am supposed to believe the 64million years because you say I should believe the 64million years. Tell me Hu, how were these rocks dated? I bought the "best" geology book on Grand Canyon. The chapter on dating said there were only two published dates on that section of Grand Canyon, AND ONE OF THEM WAS WRONG. How did he know? Answer: Because one agreed with his belief system and the other didn't. Next you claim Ammonites couldn't die in a flood. If a turbidity current dropped 40 feet of sediment on you, laden with cementing agents from volcanos and other violent sources, it would turn to rock in 24 hours, reaching maximum hardness in 28 days. Tell me Hu, if you were human with a snorkel, or an ammonite, just what would you do. How is it you would survive this event? > >3. I have personnally seen many molluscs in Grand Canyon sediments > >buried alive, completely closed. Molluscs are found by the > >billions in this condition, all over the world. Molluscs love to > >play in sediments. If an inch were dumped on them >instantaneously, > >they would think it was an all-school play day. Please help me > >understand the real science of these world-wide deposits. Hu claims:>>> >Yeah, how does this conflict with accepted science? You don't believe >that radioactive materials decay at a constant rate, or that the speed >of light is constant, yet you wonder how it is possible for clams to >be buried and fossilized? >Answer: Hu, you are avoiding the issue. These sediments are supposed to have occurred in a calm sea. Molluscs do not get buried alive in layers that are 1000th of an inch thick. But, turbidity currents and tidal waves (which do not occur in calm seas, and leave lots of evidence when they do) would deposit many feet of finely layered sediments. Hu claims:>> >BTW, maybe you can be the first to tell me how if the heavens were >created in one day, why are the heavens complete with stars as distant >as 12 billion light years away? Since the closest star is 4 light >years >away, there would be NO stars in the sky for at least 4 years, and >it would take millions of years for most of the observed sky to show >up. > >How many explanations do you know, and which ones do you believe >are accurate or bogus? I like the idea of the light being created in >place, but what's the point of creating the universe in a day if >you're creating something that's got 12 billion years of history built into >it? Answer: Here is my answer. 1. What is light? 2. Is it particle or wave? 3. How is it propogated thru space? 4. Is deep space the same as solar system space? 5. Dows light travel at the same velocity between stars as is does inside of the solar system? 5. The gravity density of the solar sytem is vastly greater that that of most space in the cosmos. 6. Are you aware of the new model of the atom offered by commonsensescience? 7. I assume you are aware that light has been slowed to 38mph in the last year or so? This was done with the "medium." 8. But a gravity field, just as a magnetic field qualifies as a type of medium. Since we are able to slow light by a factor of a million to one using the medium. Why would you insist that I base my faith on the velocity of something that I don't know what it is, don't know how it is propogated, and don't know how fast it goes? Hu claims:>>> >Some creationist sites believe that the sediments are too old to have >been deposited in one flood, and that it was created with the fossils >already in it. What's your take? Answer: There are some evolutionists who believe dinosaurs died out millions of years ago and at least one professor who has taken the stance that this notion is nonsense. Some evolutionist sites believe Lucy is our ancestor, others say Johanson is full of beans. I am sure you can find a creationist who believes anything, just as you can an evolutionist. Hu claims:>> >Is there any one "authoritative" reference on creationism that you >can recommend? >Answer: See www.csama.org/booktable Hu claims:>> >Unlike evolution where there is pretty much one monolithic puzzle >with millions of details (the time line is a start), creation appears >to have no consensus on when any of these events happened, or how or >why they happened. Can you put an accurate date on any of these >events? All these things can be pulled off the internet or out >of the library in minutes. Answer:> >years ago: >100M Cranes >100M fossil sturgeon. Yeah and fossil celocanth at 60m years, but alive today. >100M N cascades meets n america burke >95M Ammonite pre nautilus >70M Tyranasaurus - Seen by Marco Polo in 1200 >6-70M Rocky Mountains form >65M Great dinosaur extinction - Reported by every culture on the face of the globe, all the way up to late 1800's in both US and England. >no marine reptiles, ammonites >65M Yucatan meteor strike >65M Cenozoic era - modern life, continents >60M Rats Mice Squirrels >45-50 freshwater herring Knightia most common fish fossil >40M Cascades erupt >35M Grand Canyon river is on plain >28M Koalas > >On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:28:02 -0700 "arthur hu" >com> writes: > >>Oh yeah? And just how long ago did this dam burst? If Mt St >Helens > >>just popped up since 6000 years ago, does that mean every > >>volcano is 6000 years old, or that some were "created" rather >than > >>evolved from a flat landscape? The concept of evolution is that > >>everything has a past, and nothing was "created" except perhaps > >>the big bang before which we have no evidence of anything. > >>Date sent: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:30:12 EDT > >>> You're reambling Hu. A number of PhD geologists have taken a > >>>strong stand on these topics. Grand Canyou was formed in a few > >>>weeks by a catastrophic dam rupture involving more water than > >>>the great lakes, backed up 2000 feet high. The event included > >>>earthquakes, volcanism, cavitation, hydraulic plucking, piping, > >>>vortexing, and many other hydraulic forces. Recently, a KU > >>geology studednt told me his proffessor > >>> said to him "Oh, grand canyon, we have no problem with that, we > >>know the > >>> Colorado river had nothing to do with it." You may read about > >>that in > >>> books in our bookstore, particularly "Grand Canyon, Monumant to > >>> Catastrophy" by six PhD's. > >>> The simple fact is that Creation geologists have backed the > >>>geologic community off the silly and impossible story that a > >>>river caused the Canyon. In fact, the canyon caused the river. > >>I know that is hard for > >>> you, but, iven in evolvoland, water still runs downhill. > >>> As to mount St. Helens, it, like all the "young, 'push-up'" > >>mountains > >>> occured during rapid (runaway) subduction during or just after > >>the Flood. > >>> This is well documented by Dr. John Baumgardner of Los Alamos > >>Labs, a > >>> "World Class" Gepphysicist, and creator of the largest and best > >>> geophysical finite element model of the Earth's Crust. It is > >>documented > >>> in the proceedings and videotapes from the International > >>Conference on > >>> Creation, Pittsburgh, Pa. > >>> Yours in Christ, > >>> Tom Willis > >>> Creation Science Association for Mid-America > >>> On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:01:54 -0700 "arthur hu" > >> > > >Evolution time line time before present >------------------------------- >30B diameter of universe >10-20B age of universe, big bang - hubble constant, red shift >10-20B oldest observable universe >15B farthest observed galaxy - red shift / magnitude >12B farthest cluster of galaxies >10B oldest stars in Milky Way >4.6B Earth solidifes >4.5B rock from mars - radio >4.5B Precambrian - radio, strata >4.6B earth, meteors, solar system and sun - radio, star model >4.4B moon crust - radio >4.3B Earth forms layers atmosphere >4.0B Bombardment by planetesimals stops >3.8B Earth crust solidifies, oceans form >3.6B oldest US rocks - radio >3.5B first bacteria fossils - radio >3.5B Photosynthesis >2.4B Rise in oxygen stop uraninites, starts iron >1.7B Bottom of Grand Canyon laid down >1.5B Multicellular organisms >1B youngest stars in Milky Way >1B pikes peak rock radio >640M Large soft organisms - radio, strata >600M glacial age >544M Phanerozoic / Paleozoic Era >540M Cambrian - explosion of hard body animals, > trilobite fossils >520M Pikaia worm with stiff back cord >500 Vertebrates - fish >470 oaklahoma bromide trilobites >470 jawless fish, no front fin Pteraspis >440 1st great extinction >435 ice age >430 coated algae live on land >420 water scorpion >420 Millipedes 1st land animals >410M Silurian - jawed fish >400M flying insects burke >400M all major fish groups burke scary fishes >380 Cherirolepis oldest ray fin in lake burke >375 lungfish with lungs, lobe fins burke > fin structure similar to modern human >375 Eastmanosteus jawed fish burke >375 Bothriolepis first common freshwater fish burke >375 Appalacian mountains >375 Sharks >375 fern trees proto vonifers burke >370 2nd great extinction >410-360 end devonian, low oxygen inoceans killing most fish burke >360 land animals with limbs appear >360 early armoured fish no jaw extinct burke >350 Amphibians >350 Ferns - rooted plants >310 Reptiles live out of water >300M longest ice age >300M winged insects >2-300M pangea, dinosaurs emerged >255M Permian greatest extinction of all time > 85% of plants animals die > ray fin fishes survive >250M Top layer of Grand canyon >245M Mesozoic Era >230M Roaches Termites >228M Euroaptor 1st dinosaur >225M Modern ferns Bees >210M early mammals >200M Pangea breaks apart >200M Rock dating limit, dating gap >200M Crocodiles, Mammals >150M ice age cycle time >145M Archaepteryx >140M Apto(bronto)sauus >140M Stegosaurus >136M Kangaroos >130M Flowering plants >100M Cranes >100M fossil sturgeon >100M N cascades meets n america burke >95M Ammonite pre nautilus >70M Tyranasaurus >6-70M Rocky Mountains form >65M Great dinosaur extinction >no marine reptiles, ammonites >65M Yucatan meteor strike >65M Cenozoic era - modern life, continents >60M Rats Mice Squirrels >45-50 freshwater herring Knightia most common fish fossil >40M Cascades erupt >35M Grand Canyon river is on plain >28M Koalas >20M Chimpanzee Hominids >20M Start to cut Grand Canyon > 6M Colubia River Plateau >4-6M men diverge from apes >4.4M earliest man or manlike >2.8M Leaky 1973 skull >2.5M enters current ice age >2.5M stone tools >2.3M Andromeda Galaxy image >1.8M olduvai gorge ash, early man, radio >1.8M ice at poles, ice age starts > 1M Homo erectus fire >300K Oldest ice core data >240K Small Magellanic Cloxud image >200K africans split from other humans >160K Vladivostock ice core >100K diameter of Milky Way >70K Toba Eruption - ice >60K Australian aborigines >50K Oldest boat painting Australia >50-100K homo sapiens >50K limit of Carbon dating, dating gap >50K Oldest rocks on Mt St. Helens >47K Neanderthal mammoth tooth carving >45K lake algae C14 dating >40K Humans found siberia N China >40K NativeAm Asian gene clock diverge >40K Brazil charcoal >40K greenland ice core layers >40K human art, paintings >35K First Mt St. Helens Eruptions >32K ivory horse, oldest animal carving >30K last neandertal >29K C14+Tree ring dating >25K Brazil cave paintings >25k seas start to lower for bering bridge >20K Huon Pine Tasmania (oldest tree) >20K Ice age warms towards present - 3 >20k saber tooth cat la brea burke >14k meadowcroft pa site dates >13K bering land bridge >12K SeaTac airport ground sloth burke >12K Mongolians cross into N America >12K coral C14 calibration >11K Mastodons large mammals extinct >10K End of last ice age - 3 >10K Mesopotamia tokens for accounting >10K tree ring history >10K oldest man site in US C14 >9,400 tree ring c14 calibration >9,400 Nevada mummy, oldest N.Am >9,300 Kennewick Man WA, non-Mongolian >9,000 Mongolians wipe out SAm Australians >7,000 Sumerian farming villages >6,800 Earliest Egyptian/Badarian culture >6,640 Crater Lake explosion C14 >6,200 Xia earliest Chinese civilization >-- time before 6,000 impossible- creationists >6,000 Sumerians document constellations >6,004 Creation Archbishop Usher >Day 1: light >Day 2: water and sky >Day 3: dry land and plants and trees >Day 4: Sun, Moon, stars visible >Day 5: Water and sky creatures >Day 6: land animals, man >Day 7: rest >5,743 Adam and Eve-2 >5,500 Sumer accounts on clay tablets, 1st civilization >5,500 Babylon people first settle >5,200-4,900 Sumerian flood myth >5,200 Sumerians build Towers (of Babel?) >5,050 First Egyptian dynasties >5,000 Sumeria collapses >5,000 Early Indian civilization >5,000 rise of Hebrew, Semitic languages-1 >4,700 silk dicovered in china >4,700 Gilgamesh, King of Uruk in Babylonia. >4,700 Pyramids of Giza >4,500 Actual Crab Nebula explosion >4,400 oldest writing on papyrus >----------------------------------------------- >4,217 Noah's flood, one language, one race-2 > oil created > races, species micro-evolve > salt water oceans > salt water fish adapt > niagra, mississippi delta forms > complete ice cap forms >------------------------------------------------ >4,000 Tower of babel, all languages created >4,000 Gilgamesh written onto tablets >4,000 Malays drive out aborigines from SE Asia >3,850 Abraham journeys to Canaan >3,700 Jews arrive in Egypt >3,500 Shang dynasty earliest evidence of dyn > chinese writing developed >3,500 Phoenician alphabet >3,500 Book of Genesis written >3,400 Writing in China on bones >3,400-500 Moses >3,250 Moses leads Israel out of Egypt-1 > Ten commandments >3,220-3,200 Joshua invades Canaan-1 >3,200 Fall of Jericho-1 >3,000 Evidence camels domesticated-1 >3,000 Written Hebrew-1 >3,000 Maya numners heiroglyphs >2,800 Greeks adopt phonenician alphabet, add vowels >2,600 Chaldeans exile jews, bible written? >2,500 King Nebuchadnezzar II Tower of Babel >2,000 0 AD Christianity >1,430 570 Muhammed born >1,400 Punctuation / Reading invented >1,200 800 Vikings start raids >1,000 1054 Crab Nebula explodes >200 Industrial Age >150 Sumer creation translated >141 1859 Darwin proposes evolution >87 1913 Powered Aircraft >70 1930 Computed Crab Nebula Explosion >50 1950 Computers >31 1969 Space Travel to moon >0 2000 40% of US rejects evolution > >[1] The Gifts of the Jews >[2] See Sons of Adam dating below, from Abram's > leaving for Canaan in Gift of Jews >[3] Ice cores > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. 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