+OK 3822 octets Received: from smtp06.nwnexus.com (smtp06.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.45]) by mail3.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08609 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 22:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ml.egroups.com (ml.egroups.com [207.138.41.146]) by smtp06.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA16006 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 22:53:05 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: h-bd-return-1675-arthurhu=halcyon.com@returns.egroups.com Received: from [10.1.2.1] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 Oct 1999 06:53:04 -0000 Mailing-List: contact h-bd-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: h-bd@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/h-bd/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by m5; 14 Oct 1999 05:53:04 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-h-bd@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23749 invoked from network); 14 Oct 1999 05:52:56 -0000 Received: from dfw-smtpout3-ext.email.verio.net (HELO dfw-smtpout3.email.verio.net) (129.250.36.43) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Oct 1999 05:52:56 -0000 Received: from dfw-mmp3.email.verio.net ([129.250.38.63]) by dfw-smtpout3.email.verio.net (Netscape Messaging Server 4.04) with ESMTP id FJKWC700.0A4 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 05:52:55 +0000 Received: from olimu2 ([209.139.139.167]) by dfw-mmp3.email.verio.net (Netscape Messaging Server 4.04) with SMTP id FJKVEN00.22N; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 05:32:47 +0000 From: "John Derbyshire" To: , Cc: , Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 01:50:50 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01bf1621$37288f00$a28b8bd1@olimu2> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 In-Reply-To: <199910140525.WAA08034@Steam.Stanford.EDU> Subject: [h-bd] Re: The Eunuch Columbus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: > > John McCarthy here: > > I don't understand why the Chinese needed giant expeditions. > > The Chinese are a chronically unseaworthy nation. Until modern times, a trip to Japan was regarded as a fantastic and hazardous adventure. 10 years or so ago a (Chinese) documentary called "River Elegy" (Jiang Shang) was shown on Chinese TV & thought very daring (this was before the 1989 crackdown). It argued, among other things, that the Chinese and their language were oriented too much towards words like "yellow" and "earth" and not enough toward "blue" and "sea". I saw it at the time & thought it a bit far-fetched, but it made some good points. Early developments in Chinese civilization all occurred deep inland. The Shang and early Zhou dynasties (1800 to 800 B.C.) had no coastline to speak of. The only great naval battle in pre-modern Chinese history (I'm not sure I even need that qualifier) was the battle of Red Cliff, 208 A.D. when Liu Bei and Sun Quan whipped the pants off bad guy Cao Cao-- on the Yangtse River, 1,000 miles inland. But perhaps it's us who are the freaks. Why on earth would anybody sail out into open sea, perpendicular to the coast? What's the POINT? John Derbyshire 15 Chestnut Street Huntington, NY 11743-7104 Phone: (516) 427-6481 Fax: (516) 351-4006 (but call first) Email: olimu@li.net Web site: http://olimu.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ How to contribute to H-Bd: 1. To reply privately to just the sender of this message, click the "Reply" button on your email package. 2. To reply publicly to the entire H-Bd list, click the "Reply All" (or equivalent) button on your email package. 3. To start a thread, email your message to h-bd@egroups.com . +OK 3596 octets Received: from smtp01.nwnexus.com (smtp01.nwnexus.com [198.137.231.16]) by mail3.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15464 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 23:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ml.egroups.com (ml.egroups.com [207.138.41.146]) by smtp01.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA17479 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 23:54:32 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: h-bd-return-1676-arthurhu=halcyon.com@returns.egroups.com Received: from [10.1.2.1] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 Oct 1999 07:54:31 -0000 Mailing-List: contact h-bd-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: h-bd@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/h-bd/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by m5; 14 Oct 1999 06:54:31 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-h-bd@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23446 invoked from network); 14 Oct 1999 06:54:29 -0000 Received: from mail0.u-aizu.ac.jp (163.143.1.43) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Oct 1999 06:54:29 -0000 Received: from procsv14.u-aizu.ac.jp (procsv14 [163.143.147.21]) by mail0.u-aizu.ac.jp (8.9.3+3.1W/3.7Winternet-gw) with ESMTP id PAA10842; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:54:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from u-aizu.ac.jp (navigator [163.143.147.131]) by procsv14.u-aizu.ac.jp (8.9.3+3.1W/3.7Wistcmx+kanji) with ESMTP id PAA15714; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:54:27 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <38057E9F.ABD27126@u-aizu.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:56:39 +0900 From: "Steven D. Tripp" Reply-To: tripp@u-aizu.ac.jp Organization: University of Aizu X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU CC: SteveSlr@aol.com, h-bd@egroups.com References: <199910140525.WAA08034@Steam.Stanford.EDU> Subject: [h-bd] Re: The Eunuch Columbus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: John McCarthy wrote: > > > The fact that European social organization permitted long distance > exploration in single ships... Most journeys were in small groups of two or three ships. Perhaps the rough ocean conditions off Europe contributed to confidence in small fleets of relatively small ships. They also carried superior guns. > I don't understand why the Chinese needed giant expeditions. Apparently the records were destroyed by anti-maritime folks, but Cheng Ho's first of seven fleets had a political/military purpose, perhaps explaining the large numbers for that journey. It's hard to tell, but it appears that Cheng Ho tended to follow the coastlines, whereas the Portuguese were about to cross blue water. The crossing of the Indian Ocean and Arabian Sea in 1433 was not technically difficult (aside from cyclones) because the winds and currents reverse with the seasons. A Chinese monk Fu Hsien had done part of this journey in about 400 AD. A similar route may have been used by Marco Polo in 1295. Ibn Battuta made a similar journey in 1350. It should be noted that these men were not navigators and must have been using local available transportation. Within ten years after Da Gama the Portuguese had mastered these oceans (Da Gama had local help). Steve Tripp ------------------------------------------------------------------------ How to contribute to H-Bd: 1. To reply privately to just the sender of this message, click the "Reply" button on your email package. 2. To reply publicly to the entire H-Bd list, click the "Reply All" (or equivalent) button on your email package. 3. To start a thread, email your message to h-bd@egroups.com . +OK 2601 octets Received: from smtp11.nwnexus.com (smtp11.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by mail3.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA04425 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ml.egroups.com (ml.egroups.com [207.138.41.146]) by smtp11.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA18109 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:44:38 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: h-bd-return-1664-arthurhu=halcyon.com@returns.egroups.com Received: from [10.1.2.1] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 Oct 1999 03:44:38 -0000 Mailing-List: contact h-bd-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: h-bd@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/h-bd/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by m5; 14 Oct 1999 02:44:37 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-h-bd@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5223 invoked from network); 14 Oct 1999 02:44:35 -0000 Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (198.81.17.7) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Oct 1999 02:44:35 -0000 Received: from PRGHOME@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id uAXSa17057 (3984); Wed, 13 Oct 1999 22:44:27 -0400 (EDT) From: PRGHOME@aol.com Message-ID: <0.b08f2edd.25369d8b@aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 22:44:27 EDT To: olimu@li.net, SteveSlr@aol.com, h-bd@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 243 Subject: [h-bd] Re: The Eunuch Columbus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: In a message dated 10/13/99 6:24:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, olimu@li.net writes: << I include the present Chinese govt. under "imperial" of course. Less than half the territory of the People's Republic is ethnically Chinese. A quarter is Tibetan; a sixth is Turkic; a tenth is Mongolian. Though, to judge from the history of the Ming Dynasty, things don't improve much when the scope of Confucian statecraft is restricted to metropolitan China. >> Yes, and from my own observation in the 1980s, post The Gang of Four, these so-called "National Minorities" were (are?) treated by the Beijing powers with an oleaginous condescension that would make any Western "multiculturalist" reach for his lawyer. P. Gross ------------------------------------------------------------------------ How to contribute to H-Bd: 1. To reply privately to just the sender of this message, click the "Reply" button on your email package. 2. To reply publicly to the entire H-Bd list, click the "Reply All" (or equivalent) button on your email package. 3. To start a thread, email your message to h-bd@egroups.com .