e:\doc\web\99\12\light.txt Man, you are really deep into this when you can "scientifically" claim that speed of light and radioactive decay are not even constant. Tree rings and ice cores don't count? Isnt' this a lot of trouble to defend a text that wasn't even originally written by the Jews (the Sumerians had the story first?) If evolution is right, doesn't that simply relegate about 2 pages of the bible of god-inspired legends? Isn't the awe-inspiring pattern of evolution-creation and the stranger than fiction story of the Jews and Jesus enough to justify faith in God? From: willypete@juno.com To: arthurhu@halcyon.com Copies to: fredb001@dreamscape.com, willypete@juno.com Date sent: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:52:58 -0700 Subject: Re: Evolutionist Fantasy? > Arthur, > > With regards to starlight, again we are fraught with assumptions that are > not > necessarily a given. You don't even know what light is, so how can you > assume > that light has always behaved as it does right now or that it does so > consistently, > historically, in the vast field of space? > > How do you know that light wasn't ALOT faster prior to some cosmic > cataclysmic > event? How do you know that other dimensional factors about the nature > of matter > and energy aren't currently influencing the perception of light? You > need to look at > some of the other chronometers in nature that scream out a young earth > and a young > universe before assuming that the current laws of physics and observed > constants > that would affect our perception of the speed of light have always been > there. > > Light theorists have recently been calling into question all of the > assumptions > written into conventional dogma on the subject, including its speed and > behavior. > > http://www.mbnet.mb.ca/~georgkev/const-c/constc.html > > Once light is better understood, we will have arrived in the ballpark to > begin to > talk about things like historic constants and other factors that may have > affected > light travel through space. > > For more information, see: > "Starlight and Time: Solving the Puzzle of Distant Starlight in a Young > Universe." > D. Russell Humphreys. 1994. Master Books, 133 pages. $6.00. > http://www.creationresearch.org/bk_list.html > > Regards, > Willy > > On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:48:51 -0700 "arthur hu" > writes: > >which belief do you hold that explains why star appear to be > >more than 6,000 light years away? > > > > > >From: willypete@juno.com > >To: arthurhu@halcyon.com > >Copies to: willypete@juno.com, fredb001@dreamscape.com > >Date sent: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:46:27 -0700 > >Subject: Re: Evolutionist Fantasy? > > > >> > >> Tree rings and Ice cores don't substantiate a 3-5 billion year-old > >earth. > >> They don't even "prove" > >> 20,000 years. Again, they are layered with assumptions. Rings are > >> subject to all sorts of > >> environmental and physiological factors. Ice cores are not as > >certain > >> for chronology as you > >> may wish to believe. If I sound skeptical, that is good old > >fashioned > >> reasoning. You showed > >> the same skepticism to my spiritual alarms over Pocahontas a few > >months > >> ago. So don't deny > >> me the same priviledge. > >> > >> One reason for the main-stream's failure to recognize > >creation-based > >> evidentialism is because > >> of their wholesale rejection of the most significant geological > >event > >> since the original creation > >> itself, namely the world-wide flood. If the flood did happen, you > >aren't > >> going to learn much > >> about the geologic strata without taking it into account. Geologic > >> models based upon the > >> flood have been developed that better explain observed phenomenon > >like > >> upright petrified > >> forests that are found throughout numerous rock strata. As these > >models > >> have excelled our > >> knowledge of the strata, mainstream geologists have began to adopt > >> modified flood theories, > >> which utilize catastrophism and hydrology, to come to a better > >> understanding of what is > >> observed in the field. Now we understand that petrified forests > >were > >> planted by a flooding, > >> saturation, deposition process that was observed as a result of the > >> cataclysmic conditions of > >> Mt. St. Helens. > >> > >> You'll need to read a few papers and watch a few videos with an open > >mind > >> to learn from this > >> research, but the rewards will put you ahead of the pack on > >understanding > >> some of the basics. > >> > >> Or, How about strong evidence that precambrian rock was created in > >under > >> six minutes? Again, > >> you'll need to knuckle under and devour some papers, but once > >understood, > >> you'll have to take > >> a whole new look at radioisotope dating and the so-called science > >of > >> geology. It easily explains > >> why radioisotope dating is so erratic, and why it requires such > >great > >> assumption about rocks, their > >> physical and environmental state and the supposed natural > >historical > >> constants that we hold as a > >> sacred article of faith. > >> > >> Real geology is the champion of creationism and that is why > >creationists > >> are often such avid > >> fossil hounds. When former results are properly calibrated to > >account for > >> the assumptions > >> referred to above, one study indicated that perhaps 90% of the > >known > >> fossils ever uncovered > >> date around the time of the great flood. This kind of evidence is > >why > >> academic clubs, known as > >> paleontologists, now keep creationists out of digs and why they do > >not > >> start dating every bone > >> in sight, such as with the rich deposit found in Wyoming over a > >decade > >> ago. > >> > >> If anything, creation science has managed to kill off some of the > >dead > >> wood of evolution, like > >> Darwinianism and uniformitarianism. You can't kill off dinosaurs > >like > >> that unless you have a > >> serious to contender in your corner. Unfortunately, the education > >> establishment hasn't kept up > >> and kids are still being taught these vestigial faiths in public > >schools > >> even though most professors > >> have abandoned them by now. > >> > >> Anyway, I can refer you to some resources to get you started if you > >are > >> interested in an objective > >> investigation. > >> > >> Willy > >> > >> On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:44:06 -0700 "arthur hu" > > > >> writes: > >> >So what about tree rings and ice cores? How do you date > >archaeolgical > >> >sites? When was there a bering ice bridge? How far away is > >> >andromeda if it's not 2 million light years away? Creationsists can > > > >> >only dismiss facts, they cannot support their assertions. > >> > > >> > > >> >From: willypete@juno.com > >> >To: arthurhu@halcyon.com > >> >Copies to: willypete@juno.com, > >fredb001@dreamscape.com > >> >Date sent: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:30:30 -0700 > >> >Subject: Re: Evolutionist Fantasy? > >> > > >> >> > >> >> All of these "proofs" that you offer are riddled with assumptions > > > >> >that > >> >> are not verifiable scientifically. > >> >> Real science is knowledge. There is a big difference between > >> >knowledge > >> >> and theories or methods > >> >> that are based upon layers of assumption. > >> >> > >> >> A good friend of mine is a geologist who believes in an old > >earth. > >> >He > >> >> told me that metal radioisotope > >> >> dating was one of the known jokes in the halls of academia, when > >he > >> >was > >> >> in school. Uranium and > >> >> potassium dates are a blind throw in the dark, as they could come > > > >> >up > >> >> anywhere on the map. And > >> >> then what do you do? It is more an embarrasment and a liability > > > >> >than it > >> >> is worth, but you would never > >> >> hear them admit that publically. I asked him how he "knew" that > > > >> >the > >> >> rocks were millions of years old > >> >> and he affirmed his faith in the old circular argument of using > >> >"known" > >> >> fossil ages to date the rocks. > >> >> But if you look to see how the fossils were dated, it was from > >the > >> >rack > >> >> strata they were found within. > >> >> What a joke! And yet this is considered state of the art > >science! > >> >> > >> >> We have found strong evidence that throw this so-called "science" > >on > >> >its > >> >> head if you care to consider it. > >> >> We may not really know for certain how old the earth really is, > >but > >> >there > >> >> is certainly room for an objective consideration of scientific > >> >> observations, if you are interested. > >> >> > >> >> Willy > >> >> > >> >> On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:23:13 -0700 "arthur hu" > >> > > >> >> writes: > >> >> >1. Tree rings go back 20,000 years > >> >> >2. Ice cores go back 10,000 years > >> >> >3. Carbon dating has been proven reliable up to 50,000 > >> >> >years, and compared to actual algae layers in lake up > >> >> >to 43,000 years > >> >> >4. Go date a rock, any rock. The oldest ones go to 3.5 > >> >> >billion years, near the time of solar system formation, same > >> >> >with rocks on the moon and meteorites. Don't tell me > >> >> >radioactive dating is an unproven theory, dates are > >> >> >5. Figure out the distance of any star using brightness or > >> >> >red shift that is more than 6,000 light years away. > >> >> >The nearest irregular galxies are 170,000 light years > >> >> >away, Andromeda is 2 million light years away. > >> >> >6. Come up with evidence to come up with alternative > >> >> >dates for any event science dates as more than 6,000 > >> >> >years ago. No dating method other than Genesis will yield > >> >> >6,000 years. > >> >> > > >> >> >This is not faith, all I have to do is a little research and > >math > >> >> >and this is all easily verified. > >> >> > > >> >> >From the data you claim is valid, there is no way to > >> >> >verify if the sumerian or genesis version of the creation > >> >> >is correct. > >> >> > > >> >> >From: willypete@juno.com > >> >> >To: arthurhu@halcyon.com, > >> >> >fredb001@dreamscape.com > >> >> >Copies to: willypete@juno.com > >> >> >Date sent: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:59:51 -0700 > >> >> >Subject: Re: Evolutionist Fantasy? > >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The burden of proof rests with you. It is your contention > >that > >> >the > >> >> >earth > >> >> >> is billions of years old. > >> >> >> If you are so certain of this assertion, then prove it, > >simply, > >> >> >> scientifically, logically. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> If it is such a basic tenet of science, then it shouldn't be > >any > >> > > >> >> >problem > >> >> >> to just prove it. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> C'mon Art, don't let me down. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Willy Peterson > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:39:59 -0700 "arthur hu" > >> >> > > >> >> >> writes: > >> >> >> >Everything on the timeline is based on scientific data, > >every > >> >> >> >one of these items is scientific proof the earth is more > >than > >> >> >> >6,000 years old. You'll have to debunk every one of them > >(which > >> > > >> >> >> >is what creationists do). Funny thing is that creationists > >can't > >> > > >> >> >> >agree on a date for any of these things, evolutionists are > >> >> >> >generally in complete agreement on these dates. You don't > >> >> >> >come up with dates like 10,000 yrs ago for appearance of > >> >> >> >mongloid native americans out of random error. Do the > >> >> >> >creationists have dates for any of these events?? > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >To: arthurhu@halcyon.com > >> >> >> >Copies to: willypete@juno.com, csahq@juno.com > >> >> >> >Date sent: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:43:33 -0700 > >> >> >> >Subject: Re: Evolutionist Fantasy? > >> >> >> >From: willypete@juno.com > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Too bad Mr. Hu offered no real scientific basis for his > >> >> >assertions. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> Such naturalistic assumptions over origins are precisely > >what > >> >has > >> >> > > >> >> >> >> driven science back into the dark chambers of mysticism. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Willy Peterson > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:38:10 -0400 "arthur hu" > >> >> >> > (by > >> >> >> >> way of Fred Battey ) writes: > >> >> >> >> >Even though many will find this offensive I am forwarding > >it > >> >on > >> >> >as > >> >> >> >I > >> >> >> >> >think > >> >> >> >> >it's necessary to understand the thinking of others. > >Fred > >> >> >> >> >____________________________________________________ > >> >> >> >> >Just for laughs, did some surfing to put together the > >> >evolution > >> >> >> >> >theory time line. There is quite a bit of science than > >can't > >> >be > >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >taught > >> >> >> >> >if we are to assume that any dating method which leads to > >an > >> >> >> >> >event before biblical creation is faulty. > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >On the other hand, it > >> >> >> >> >makes dating anything in the universe pretty easy, if it > >> >isn't > >> >> >in > >> >> >> >> >recorded history, it is not more than 5,000-10,000 years > >old, > >> > > >> >> >no > >> >> >> >> >need for a Hubble constant, radioactive dating, > >> >classification > >> >> >> >> >of strata, matching continents, tracing evolution of > >> >organisms, > >> >> >> >> >or red shift. And no need to figure out how anything old > >we > >> >see > >> >> >> >> >got there, it was all created as we see it in 7 days, > >galaxy, > >> > > >> >> >> >star, > >> >> >> >> >planet, continent, ice shelf, you name it. It's all there > >in > >> >all > >> >> > > >> >> >> >of > >> >> >> >> >3 or 4 paragraphs at the start of genesis. Who needs 3 > >years > >> >> >> >> >of biology, chemistry and physics? > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >Should the children of creationists be taught the > >> >non-biblical > >> >> >> >> >theories at all, be taught both, or only "scientfic > >> >> >creationism" > >> >> >> >> >(now there's an oxymoron...) What other religions have > >> >mounted > >> >> >> >> >official objections to evolutionism? > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >Evolution time line time before present > >> >> >> >> >------------------------------- > >> >> >> >> >10-20B age of universe, big bang > >> >> >> >> >10-20B oldest observable universe > >> >> >> >> >15B farthest observed galaxy > >> >> >> >> >10B oldest stars in Milky Way > >> >> >> >> >4.5B rock from mars > >> >> >> >> >4.5B Precambrian > >> >> >> >> >4.6B earth, solar system and sun > >> >> >> >> >3.5B first bacteria fossils > >> >> >> >> >1.7B Bottom of Grand Canyon laid down > >> >> >> >> >1B youngest stars in Milky Way > >> >> >> >> >640M Large soft organisms > >> >> >> >> >600M glacial age > >> >> >> >> >544M Phanerozoic / Paleozoic Era > >> >> >> >> >540M Cambrian - explosion of animals, > >> >> >> >> > trilobite fossils > >> >> >> >> >435 ice age > >> >> >> >> >410M Silurian - jawed fish > >> >> >> >> >300M longest ice age > >> >> >> >> >2-300M pangea, dinosaurs emerged > >> >> >> >> >255M great extinction of all time > >> >> >> >> >250M Top layer of Grand canyon > >> >> >> >> >245M Mesozoic Era > >> >> >> >> >200M first birds > >> >> >> >> >150M ice age cycle time > >> >> >> >> >100M fossil sturgeon > >> >> >> >> >6-70M Rocky Mountains form > >> >> >> >> >65M Great dinosaur extinction > >> >> >> >> >65M Yucatan KT layer strike > >> >> >> >> >65M Cenozoic era - modern life, continents > >> >> >> >> >35M Grand Canyon river is on plain > >> >> >> >> >20M Start to cut Grand Canyon > >> >> >> >> >4-6M men diverge from apes > >> >> >> >> >4.4M earliest man or manlike > >> >> >> >> >2.5M enters current ice age > >> >> >> >> >2.5M stone tools > >> >> >> >> >1.8M ice at poles, ice age > >> >> >> >> >200K africans split > >> >> >> >> >100K homo sapiens > >> >> >> >> >40K human art, paintings > >> >> >> >> >30K last neandertal > >> >> >> >> >20K Huon Pine Tasmania (oldest tree) > >> >> >> >> >---- fantasy according to creationists --- > >> >> >> >> >5-10K Biblical age of earth and universe, history > >> >> >> >> >5K Great flood > >> >> >> >> >5K microevolution of all post-ark races and subspecies > >> >> >> >> >4K Tower of babel, creation of all modern languages > >> >> >> >> >2,000 New Testament > >> >> >> >> >200 Industrial Age > >> >> >> >> >100 Aircraft > >> >> >> >> >50 Computers > >> >> >> >> >25 Space Travel > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >Arthur Hu arthurhu@halcyon.com Education Deform Critic > >> >> >> >> >Index: > >> >http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu/index/edreform.htm > >> >> >> >> >listserver: http://www.egroups.com/list/wa-ed-deform > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> > >>>___________________________________________________________________ > >> >> >> >> Get the Internet just the way you want it. > >> >> >> >> Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a > > > >> >> >month! > >> >> >> >> Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >Arthur Hu arthurhu@halcyon.com Education Deform Critic > >> >> >> >Index: > >http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu/index/edreform.htm > >> >> >> >listserver: http://www.egroups.com/list/wa-ed-deform > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >>___________________________________________________________________ > >> >> >> Get the Internet just the way you want it. > >> >> >> Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a > >> >month! > >> >> >> Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >Arthur Hu arthurhu@halcyon.com Education Deform Critic > >> >> >Index: http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu/index/edreform.htm > >> >> >listserver: http://www.egroups.com/list/wa-ed-deform > >> >> > >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ > >> >> Get the Internet just the way you want it. > >> >> Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a > >month! > >> >> Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > >> > > >> > > >> >Arthur Hu arthurhu@halcyon.com Education Deform Critic > >> >Index: http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu/index/edreform.htm > >> >listserver: http://www.egroups.com/list/wa-ed-deform > >> > >> ___________________________________________________________________ > >> Get the Internet just the way you want it. > >> Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > >> Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > > > > >Arthur Hu arthurhu@halcyon.com Education Deform Critic > >Index: http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu/index/edreform.htm > >listserver: http://www.egroups.com/list/wa-ed-deform > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.