\doc\web\99\09\indiq.txt 2 >>SAILER SAYS INDIANS SPLIT DRAVIDIAN VS ARYAN DARKEST DRAVIDIAN SOUTH INDIANS SMARTEST VS LIGHTER ARYAN NORTHERNERS olimu@li.net (John Derbyshire) writes: it seems to me that there is a (positive) correlation between how dark (i.e. "Dravidian") they are and how mathematically adept they are. "India: A Million Mutinies Now" by V.S. Naipaul. the South Indian talent for science and math, especially among Dravidian brahmins. ... In an essay on Indian-Americans by a professor of South Asian Studies at Brown,among Hindu immigrants, a new divide is emerging: a racial one between northern, lighter-skinned Aryans and southern, darker-skinned Dravidians. 1 >>LYNN RATES INDIAN IQ AS 91 1 >>LYNN RATES INDIAN IQ AS 91 \doc\web\99\09\indiq.txt As to data on intelligence, Lynn in his 1997 discussion merely repeat his 1991 table, which gives an estimated IQ of 91 for South Asian Caucasoids. I do not attach too much weight to the success of Indians in the US (which is outstanding), since in the UK they do not do particularly well. The US Indian population appears to be highly selected by our immigration laws. In the UK, many more ordinary Indians came over. Lynn, R., (1991). Race differences in intelligence: a global perspective, Mankind Quarterly, 31, 254-296. Lynn, R., (1997). Geographical variation in intelligence. In the Scientific Study of Human Nature: Tribute to Hans J. Eysenck at Eighty, Helmuth Nyborg (Editor), New York: Elsevier Science. 259-281. From: Ed765@aol.com Date sent: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:07:12 EDT To: H-Bd@egroups.com Subject: [h-bd] Indian Castes and IQ Ed Miller here: Steve Sailer asks about the IQ of Indians.(the inhabitants of India). He argues that there should be no caste differences because the castes essentially reflect the freezing of status and occupational differences that existed when India was invaded by the Aryans from the Northeast. I would expect caste differences just because the importance of intelligence in the different occupations differs. I suspect a low intelligence priest or merchant is a at a greater disadvantage than a low IQ farmer. I would expect those who were relatively unsuccessful at the traditional occupations for their castes to be leave fewer descendants. Over a large number of generations I would have expected differential selection for intelligence, even if the castes did not originally differ in ability. However, I suspect that the original Brahmins, presumably the priests of the invaders, were probably of higher IQ than the bulk of the invaders, and possibly their merchants. The above provides some testable hypothesizes, but I do not know of test scores that can be used to evaluate them. However, there may be some large data bases of school performance, or other measures that could be used to test this theory. As to data on intelligence, Lynn in his 1997 discussion merely repeat his 1991 table, which gives an estimated IQ of 91 for South Asian Caucasoids. I do not attach too much weight to the success of Indians in the US (which is outstanding), since in the UK they do not do particularly well. The US Indian population appears to be highly selected by our immigration laws. In the UK, many more ordinary Indians came over. References Lynn, R., (1991). Race differences in intelligence: a global perspective, Mankind Quarterly, 31, 254-296. Lynn, R., (1997). Geographical variation in intelligence. In the Scientific Study of Human Nature: Tribute to Hans J. Eysenck at Eighty, Helmuth Nyborg (Editor), New York: Elsevier Science. 259-281. Date sent: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:48:21 -0700 To: h-bd@egroups.com From: sarich@SSCL.Berkeley.EDU (Vincent Sarich) Subject: [h-bd] More on Indian IQs I append an excerpt from Ian's posting of 9 June: <> I conclude, looking at the numbers in Ian's current posting, that these Asians must be in the main Chinese and Indian -- so 2.2% of the population is getting 25% of the med school places. Sounds just like the situation with Berkeley undergraduates, though, of course, we don't have nearly as many Indians here. Vincent Sarich ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! Try something new and discover more ways to save! http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/381 How to contribute to H-Bd: To reply privately to just the sender of this message, click the "Reply" button on your email package. Send reply to: "Ian Pitchford" From: "Ian Pitchford" To: Date sent: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:06:51 +0100 Organization: http://www.human-nature.com/ Subject: [h-bd] Re: Indian Castes and IQ Ed Miller wrote: As to data on intelligence, Lynn in his 1997 discussion merely repeat his 1991 table, which gives an estimated IQ of 91 for South Asian Caucasoids. I do not attach too much weight to the success of Indians in the US (which is outstanding), since in the UK they do not do particularly well. The US Indian population appears to be highly selected by our immigration laws. In the UK, many more ordinary Indians came over. _____ REPLY: Lynn Jorde, a human geneticist at the University of Utah, gave a presentation to the American Association of Physical Anthropologists last year on research that traced "maternal and paternal ancestry in the same men by analyzing markers on the Y chromosome - which is inherited only through the paternal line - and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), which is inherited maternally. The results indicated that women sometimes married up and ascended the social ladder into higher castes. But men tended to stay in the castes into which they were born... Men in closely ranked castes had similarities in their maternally inherited mtDNA, but there were few similarities between the mtDNA of men in the highest castes, such as Brahmins, and those in the lowest castes... The effects of caste were still evident even though the system was outlawed in the 1960s. And the study shows an Asian origin for people in most castes, but the DNA of people in the upper castes has some similarities to that of Caucasians, which fits historical records that say the caste system was imposed by Caucasians sweeping in from the northwest." See: Gibbons, A. (1998). Indian women's movement. Science, 280, 380-1. _______ Indian children currently outperform white children in the GCSE examinations in England and Wales, though I don't think much of this has anything to do with IQ, let alone genes for IQ. You may remember that we discussed the original Times report in March: http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/99/03/11/timnwsnws02009.html?130 2437 How ethnic groups fare The Ofsted survey, which monitored schools in 25 education authorities in England, shows the strengths and weaknesses of the different groups and how boys fare compared with girls Bangladeshi The smallest of the main ethnic groups, Bangladeshis are also among the least likely to have been born in Britain. Language problems depress performance at primary level, where their results are causing concern. By GCSE, they have made up ground, but are less likely than other Asians to stay on in education and more likely to end up with manual jobs. Girls do slightly better than boys. Percentage of population: 0.3 GCSE (5 A*-C) 1996: 25% GCSE (5 A*-C) 1998: 33% School exclusions per 1,000 pupils: 9 Percentage of 1998 higher education entrants: 0.6 Caribbean Of all the ethnic groups, black Caribbean pupils' results are causing most concern. After a generally good start at school, results fall away even before the end of primary education. They have the lowest scores at GCSE, by far the highest exclusion rate and are the most likely to leave school at 16. Girls do better than boys except in maths and science. Percentage of population: 0.9 GCSE (5 A*-C) 1996: 23% 1998: 29% School exclusions per 1,000 pupils: 160 Percentage of 1998 higher education entrants: 1.0 Chinese Chinese and other Asian groups from outside the Indian sub-continent are by far the most successful in educational terms. Although only 0.7 per cent of the UK population, they are well represented in selective schools and universities, more than 80 per cent staying in education after the age of 16. They are also the least likely to be excluded from school. Percentage of population: 0.7 GCSE (5 A*-C) 1998: 61% School exclusions per 1,000 pupils: 5 Percentage of 1998 higher education entrants: 2 Indian More than a quarter of the ethnic-minority population is of Indian descent, and their members comfortably outscore their white counterparts in examinations. Those in education are more likely than other Asian groups to have been born in Britain, so do not face the same language problems. At least two thirds stay on in education after 16. Percentage of population 1.5 GCSE (5 A*-C) 1998: 54% School exclusions per 1,000 pupils: 22 Percentage of 1998 higher education entrants: 4.0 Pakistani One of the largest ethnic-minority groups, with almost 1 per cent of the population, Pakistani pupils tend to do poorly in primary school, but catch up as their English improves. GCSE results have risen during the Nineties, but are still low by comparison with other groups. More than half - more boys than girls - stay in education beyond the age of 16 and university entry is growing. Percentage of population: 0.9 GCSE (5 A*-C) 1996: 23% 1998: 29% School exclusions per 1,000 pupils: 35 Percentage of 1998 higher education entrants: 2.2 White National averages for white pupils disguise enormous differences between social groups: working-class boys, for example, are as big a concern to ministers as any ethnic group. Even without such distinctions, white teenagers are more likely than blacks or Asians to leave school at the first opportunity. They are also marginally under-represented in higher education, compared with the main ethnic groups. Percentage of population: 94.5 GCSE (5 A*-C) 1998: 47% School exclusions per 1,000 pupils: 28 Percentage of 1998 higher education entrants: 89.8 Ian Pitchford Centre for Psychotherapeutic Studies School for Health and Related Research University of Sheffield, S10 2TA, UK http://www.human-nature.com/ From: "John Derbyshire" To: "Gregory M. Cochran" <74771.3230@compuserve.com>, "Arthur Hu" Copies to: "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" Date sent: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:44:02 -0400 Subject: [h-bd] Re: Asian query follow-up I wonder how appropriate-- from the ethnometric point of view-- the words "Hindu" and "Caucasian" are in this context. The greatest mathematician India has yet produced was Srinivasa Ramanujan, who came from Kumbakonam in southern India. Though certainly Hindu by religion, his native tongue was Tamil, which is a Dravidian language, not at all related to the Indo-European language family of which Hindi is a member. He was also, as can be seen from his photographs (there is a good biography by Robert Kanigel, "The Man Who Knew Infinity") very dark and not at all "Caucasian"-looking like so many north Indians. In fact the Indo-European-speaking inhabitants of India descend from invaders of the 2nd millenium B.C., who overwhelmed an older, darker, Dravidian-language stock and appropriated their religion (it is plain from the most ancient texts, for example, that the invaders were enthusiastic eaters of beef... a habit that died out as they became Hindicized). I have for some years been involved in the hiring of technical specialists-- mostly computer programmers-- in New York City. The pool of applicants for programming jobs here is about equal parts (a) Chinese (b) Indian (c) Russian-Jewish and (d) all other. I have hired several Indians, and it seems to me that there is a (positive) correlation between how dark (i.e. "Dravidian") they are and how mathematically adept they are. This is impressionistic, but, together with the eminence in his field of S. Ramanujan, it suggests the following very loose & vague hypothesis: Whatever neurological structures are involved in abstract mathematical skills are more likely to be found in a highly developed state among East Asians, Ashkenazi Jews and Indians of Dravidian-speaking stock. From: "John Derbyshire" To: Date sent: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:33:25 -0400 Subject: [h-bd] Afterthought On 6/30/99 I wrote: >>I wonder how appropriate-- from the ethnometric point of view-- the >>words "Hindu" and "Caucasian" are in this context. The greatest mathematician India has yet produced was Srinivasa Ramanujan, who came from Kumbakonam in southern India. Though certainly Hindu by religion, his native tongue was Tamil, which is a Dravidian language, not at all related to the Indo-European language family of which Hindi is a member. He was also, as can be seen from his photographs (there is a good biography by Robert Kanigel, "The Man Who Knew Infinity") very dark and not at all "Caucasian"-looking like so many north Indians. In fact the Indo-European-speaking inhabitants of India descend from invaders of the 2nd millenium B.C., who overwhelmed an older, darker, Dravidian-language stock and appropriated their religion (it is plain from the most ancient texts, for example, that the invaders were enthusiastic eaters of beef... a habit that died out as they became Hindicized). I have for some years been involved in the hiring of technical specialists-- mostly computer programmers-- in New York City. The pool of applicants for programming jobs here is about equal parts (a) Chinese (b) Indian (c) Russian-Jewish and (d) all other. I have hired several Indians, and it seems to me that there is a (positive) correlation between how dark (i.e. "Dravidian") they are and how mathematically adept they are. This is impressionistic, but, together with the eminence in his field of S. Ramanujan, it suggests the following very loose & vague hypothesis: Whatever neurological structures are involved in abstract mathematical skills are more likely to be found in a highly developed state among East Asians, Ashkenazi Jews and Indians of Dravidian-speaking stock.<< =============================== As an afterthought, it may not be irrelevant that the ancient civilizations of India seem to have been obsessed to an unusual degree-- I can't think of any comparisons, either ancient or modern-- with very big numbers. Sanskrit has words for 10^31 (vyavaithanaprajnapti), 10^37 (samaptalambha), 10^47 (visandjnagati) and 10^53 (tallakchana). In a math competition to win the hand of a lady (!) the Buddha-- according to one of the ancient biographies ("Lalitavistara") computed the number of atoms in a yojana (= 3 miles). He got the answer 3,840,000,000,000. The ancient book "Surya Siddhanta" claims it was given (by the Sun) to a fellow named Maya Asura in 2,163,102 BC. Archbishop Ussher's computation of the age of the world (4004 BC) looks very pedestrian by comparison. The ninth level of time cycles (though I am not altogether sure I understand this bit) lasts for 10^421 years. Cf current estimates of the age of the cosmos-- around 10^10 years. I do not guarantee any of the above spellings. Any Sanskritists in the group? John Derbyshire 15 Chestnut Street Huntington, NY 11743-7104 Phone: (516) 427-6481, (516) 424-8101 Fax: (516) 351-4006 Email: olimu@li.net 2>> DARKEST DRAVIDIAN SOUTH INDIANS SMARTEST VS LIGHTER ARYAN NORTHERNERS olimu@li.net (John Derbyshire) writes: it seems to me that there is a (positive) correlation between how dark (i.e. "Dravidian") they are and how mathematically adept they are. "India: A Million Mutinies Now" by V.S. Naipaul. the South Indian talent for science and math, especially among Dravidian brahmins. ... In an essay on Indian-Americans by a professor of South Asian Studies at Brown,among Hindu immigrants, a new divide is emerging: a racial one between northern, lighter-skinned Aryans and southern, darker-skinned Dravidians. From: SteveSlr@aol.com Date sent: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:53:42 EDT To: h-bd@egroups.com Subject: [h-bd] More on India olimu@li.net (John Derbyshire) writes: << it seems to me that there is a (positive) correlation between how dark (i.e. "Dravidian") they are and how mathematically adept they are. >> Steve Sailer here: 1. I'm reading "India: A Million Mutinies Now" by V.S. Naipaul. It's a surprisingly dull book from such a celebrated author, but Naipaul refers several times to the same phenomenon: the South Indian talent for science and math, especially among Dravidian brahmins. "In the South, science had grown over two or three generations out of the brahminical tradition of abstract learning." This suggests that Ed Miller's on to something in his view that the traditional intellectual duties of the brahmins, dealing with the extraordinary degree of complexity and abstraction found in Indian religion and philosophy (which I tended to unfairly underrate because it always make my eyes glaze over), would have artificially selected for brahmins with the brainpower to handle them. Indeed, Indian immigrants to the U.S. are highly over-represented in the most brahminical (i.e., abstract) of modern American jobs: e.g., statistical modeling, information systems architecting, strategic consulting, etc.). Much of the immigration of brahmins to America seems to be encouraged by Indian affirmative action laws greatly restricting the opportunities of brahmins in India. 2. In an essay on Indian-Americans by a professor of South Asian Studies at Brown, she claims that among immigrants, divisions of caste and locality tend to fade quickly. As important as they seem back home, Indian immigrants find that the big cultural gap between Indians and other Americans renders them insignificant and irrelevant. However, she asserts that among Hindu immigrants, a new divide is emerging: a racial one between northern, lighter-skinned Aryans and southern, darker-skinned Dravidians. For example, in American cities with a big enough population of Indians, there will often be two Hindu temples: one for Northerners of all castes and one for Southerners of all castes. Presumably, this divide has existed in India all along, but it becomes more visible when you strip away caste and other overlays. 3. Besides Zubin Mehta and Freddie Mercury, the Zoroastrian Parsees (or Parsis) of Bombay count among their small ranks many of the industrial dynasties of India, most notably the richest, the Tatas. The number of Parsees in India has shrunk from 100k to 70k over the last three decades, due to immigration, the reluctance of Parsees to marry and reproduce (average number of children per woman is 1.6), and the fact that Parsee women are not discouraged to marry men of other religions, but their children are not allowed to be Parsees. It's been suggested that the shrinking of the ranks of Parsees is partly by design, since all Parsees benefit from huge trustfunds set up by their wealthy ancestors, and thus the fewer Parsees, the bigger the slices of the trust fund pies for each. Clearly, somebody ought to do some serious research on this group while it's still around. Steve Sailer http://members.aol.com/steveslr ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups members Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from Amazon .com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/363 How to contribute to H-Bd: 1. To reply privately to just the sender of this message, click the "Reply" button on your email package. 2. To reply publicly to the entire H-Bd list, click the "Reply All" (or equivalent) button on your email package. 3. To start a thread, email your message to h-bd@egroups.com Send reply to: "Ian Pitchford" From: "Ian Pitchford" To: Date sent: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:16:32 +0100 Organization: http://www.human-nature.com/ Subject: [h-bd] Re: More on India Steve Sailer wrote: 1. I'm reading "India: A Million Mutinies Now" by V.S. Naipaul. It's a surprisingly dull book from such a celebrated author, but Naipaul refers several times to the same phenomenon: the South Indian talent for science and math, especially among Dravidian brahmins. "In the South, science had grown over two or three generations out of the brahminical tradition of abstract learning." ______ REPLY: Perhaps the real explanation for Dravidian talents is a cultural tradition stretching back to Aryabhata (476-499), the great Indian mathematician, still listed in most encyclopaedias (including the latest edition of Encarta) as a native of Patna, who was in fact from Kerala, where his school is still in vogue. It's probably also more than slightly significant that: "Since 1947 Bangalore has also developed into a major industrial city, with factories producing communications equipment, machine tools, aircraft, electric motors, printed materials, textiles, and footwear. Bangalore is also the centre of India's space programme. Since the late 1970s it has developed as a computer-software production centre, and is home to more than 100 software and hardware companies. It exported over US$300 million worth of software in 1993. Telecommunications and a range of industries related to defence (including aircraft manufacture, electronics, and light engineering) have also boomed in Bangalore over the past 20 years. Bangalore University (1964) is located there; other significant educational and research institutes include the noted Indian Institute of Science (1909) and the University of Agricultural Sciences (1964)." About eighteen years ago, after a six-year long fascination with Hinduism and Buddhism (founded by a kshatriya and not a brahmin) I spent a year studying comparative religion, and still have the literature I collected at that time. As a result I couldn't resist searching for general information on the cultural traditions and history of the Dravidians, which you may find of interest: "Before the coming of the Nordics there had already been considerable intermixture of the ethnic types in the Indian subcontinent: Negrito is perhaps the earliest known, followed by Australoid, Mediterranean and Mongolian races. The Australoid peoples are represented by small pockets of Munda-speaking tribes. The Mediterranean element is broadly represented by the Dravidian language-groups of South India.... There are certain ethnic links between the Mediterranean people and the Dravidians of India. Nowhere does this show itself more plainly than in the deeply rooted polytheism of both Italy and India, the 'ineradicable polytheism of Mediterranean man' as H. A. L. Fisher called it. 'The pagan genius became the Christian angel, the pagan Isis the Christian Madonna, the pagan hero became the Christian saint, the pagan festival the Christian feast.' "(A History of Religion East and West by Trevor Ling) "Not all of India's contacts with outsiders were violent during this confusing period. Trade with Roman merchants grew so visibly that Pliny blamed it (wrongly) for draining gold out of the empire. We have little hard information, it is true, except about the arrival of embassies from India to negotiate over trade but the remark suggests that one feature of India's trade with the West was already established; what Mediterranean markets sought were luxuries which only India could supply and there was little they could offer in return except bullion. This pattern held until the nineteenth century... The sea is a uniter of the cultures of trading communities; Tamil words for commodities turn up in Greek and Indians from the south have traded with Egypt since Hellenic times. Later Roman merchants lived in southern ports where Tamil kings kept Roman bodyguards. Finally, it seems that whatever the truth may be about the holy apostle Thomas, Christianity appeared in India first in the western trading ports, possibly as early as the first century AD." (The Penguin History of the World by J. M. Roberts) "After Skandagupta's death (467), the Guptas were unable to resist the repeated waves of Hun invasions and central authority declined rapidly. The succession of the kings that followed him is uncertain. A number of administrative seals have been discovered with the names of the same kings, but in a varied order of succession, which points to a confused close of the dynasty. A major blow came at the end of the 5th century, when the Huns successfully broke through into northern India, and by the mid-6th century much of northern and central India was under Hunnish rule" (Encarta) "The Vedic religion of the Brahmins which had hitherto been in a weak position began to make headway and gain the support of the kings and men in high positions. Thereupon Brahmanism got the upper hand over Jainism. It was at this stage that Buddhism disappeared from South India. This Brahmanism had been unpopular for several centuries on account of its animal sacrifices and observance of the caste system. The depressed classes detested this religion as it forbade them to study the Vedas. After the 5th century Brahmanism began to change its emphasis on these unpopular doctrines. It also incorporated popular South Indian gods such as Kali, Skanda, Ganapati, and Vishnu into its pantheon." (Buddhism in South India by H. Dhammaratana Thera) "Ramanuja (1040-1137) born in Bhutapuri in South India.. converted large numbers of people to Vaisnavism (probably the most widely practised Indian religion); he toured South India restoring many temples, and North India, including Benares. As Shankara was the great logician of Vedanta, Ramanuja was the great intuitionist, valuing feelings highly in the formulation of his religious views..." (Dictionary of Asian Philosophies by St Elmo Nauman Jr). Perhaps because of our interest in the British Raj and Mughal India we tend to underestimate the importance and influence of Dravidian culture, as the excerpts above indicate. Finally, I note that in "The history and geography of human genes" Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi & Piazza write: "It is clear, however, that Brahmin marriages are subject to geographic constraints, and their caste is far from being one over all of India; there are probably a great many different Brahmin jatis that are totally segregated genetically. If they had a single origin, they are now highly differentiated. On an entirely different basis, other scientists (Chakraborty and Roychoudry 1978) came to the same conclusion, that drift is the major factor for genetic differentiation in India." Thanks for bringing this up, I've really enjoyed delving into my old records. Regards Ian Pitchford Centre for Psychotherapeutic Studies School for Health and Related Research University of Sheffield, S10 2TA, UK http://www.human-nature.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FREE !! DOWNLOAD NOW !! Interactive Sexy Girl Cartoon Character for Windows. http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/456 How to contribute to H-Bd: 1. To reply privately to just the sender of this message, click the "Reply" button on your email package. 2. To reply publicly to the entire H-Bd list, click the "Reply All" (or equivalent) button on your email package. 3. To start a thread, email your message to h-bd@egroups.com