+OK 6893 octets Received: from smtp06.nwnexus.com (smtp06.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.45]) by mail1.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04003 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mc.egroups.com (mc.egroups.com [207.138.41.138]) by smtp06.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA30775 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] by mc.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Apr 1999 17:02:48 -0000 Mailing-List: contact h-bd-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: h-bd@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/h-bd/ Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-h-bd@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14058 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Apr 1999 17:02:45 -0000 Received: from znet.groupz.net (208.234.232.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 1999 17:02:45 -0000 Received: from louis2 (ags-5200-5-p5.groupz.net [208.138.66.213]) by znet.groupz.net (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA27926; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:00:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <370E31BB.2988@groupz.net> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 12:58:35 -0400 From: "Louis R. Andrews" Reply-To: LRAnd@groupz.net Organization: Stalking the Wild Taboo - http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Louis@groupz.net, h-bd@egroups.com CC: Lrand@groupz.net References: <199904030213_MC2-7060-DF47@compuserve.com> Subject: [h-bd] Re: Race, sex, violence Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: Louis Andrews here - The posts on race, sex, and violence have been interesting, but it seems to me that a differentiation between legitimate violence and illegitimate violence would be very helpful. Legitimate violence would be any violence that is generally condoned (perhaps too strong a word) by the society or sub-culture in which it occurs and at the time it occurs. This might include warfare (everywhere), blood feuds(Balkans and other places), wife beating in many primitive cultures, occasionally street gangs and tongs, and boxing, football, and hockey in contemporary America. There seems to be some basic need to either participate or view violence among many normal people, particularly males, and this is typically satisfied by legitimate violence. Illegitimate violence would involve acts generally disapproved of by the society or sub-culture in which it occurs at the time it occurs - in other words violence crimes and some lessor acts. For a contemporary example of the importance of time - when I was growing up in the late 40s and 50s, boys were expected have fights (both in school and off) to establish physical pecking orders. I was somewhat of a runt and can recall losing a fight with a student a couple of grades below me. The principal didn't punish either of us, but chided me for losing a fight to a younger kid. Today such a fight might result in arrest by police. This form of youth violence has gone from legitimate to illegitimate in a generation or so. In terms of legitimate violence, any supposed group/racial personality or intellectual factors don't seem very strong to me. Certainly Caucasians and Asians have created mounds of skulls as large as any created by Blacks in history. Thus it seems to me that any look at different levels of violence between groups would more fruitfully make clear that illegitimate violence or specific types of criminality is really what is being compared. Anthony Walsh, in his _Biosociology_, says "Criminality is a property of individuals, a defect of personhood among those who seek their own selfish interests regardless of the costs to others." Thus any correlation or causal linkage between race and crime would seem to depend on differences in mean levels of this "defect of personhood" between the races or ethnic groups being considered. The first and most obvious point to be considered would seem to me to be intelligence, since it is pretty clear that it varies along a Black--> Caucasian--> Asian continuum with the Black/Caucasian spread to be much larger than the Caucasian/Asian one. In fact, Robert Gordon of Johns Hopkins has shown that the Black/Caucasian differences in violent crime rates (both based on arrests and self-reported) are virtually eliminated when IQ is held constant. I suspect that the causation in Caucasian/Asian differences are substantially different, as the IQ difference doesn't seem sufficient for the considerable difference in crime rates in the US (leaving out such groups as the Hmong, etc.) Incidentally, Walsh notes that the IQ/crime issue can be further refined by breaking down the IQ tests into the verbal and practical components. Criminals (and sociopaths) typically have a higher practical IQ than verbal IQ, besides being lower overall than the societal mean. He notes that "P > V boys are found approximately four times more often than V > P boys in delinquent populations." This is rather interesting since Blacks in the US tend to score better on the verbal than they do on the practical portion of the test. In terms of other factors involved in any correlation/causation between race and violent crime, it seems to me that at least these four should be considered. 1. Testosterone levels, which both Rushton and Miller have commented on in their writings seem one possibility. 2. Various personality factors as disclosed by the MMPI which seem related to criminality. 3. A difference in "future sense," between races, though more difficult to measure, could also be a factor. The reasons for this supposed race difference has been explained in an evolutionary sense by list members Phil Rushton and Ed Miller in some of their writings. 4. Mesomorphic body style. For some reason, and across racial and ethnic lines, mesomorphs tend to be higher in criminal behavior than non-mesomorphs. In each of these four additional contributory factors, Blacks tend to score higher on the pro-criminality side and Caucasians and Asians lower. Of course, some might argue that items 2 & 3 may just be variables connected to the IQ/intelligence issue, but I suspect that there is more involved. Additionally it's possible that one or all of these four might have a greater role than IQ in the Caucasian/Asian difference in crime rates in the US or at least a greater role than IQ seems to have in the Black/Caucasian crime rate difference. Louis Andrews LRAnd@groupz.net http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups Spotlight: "Kosovo-Reports" - Direct reports from Kosovo/Serbia/Yugoslavia. http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/5 eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/h-bd Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com . +OK 1467 octets Received: from mail2.halcyon.com (mail2.halcyon.com [206.63.63.60]) by mail3.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12074 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znet.groupz.net (znet.groupz.net [208.234.232.2]) by mail2.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA07110 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from louis2 (ags-5200-7-p43.groupz.net [208.234.232.93]) by znet.groupz.net (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA29147 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:17:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <371246E6.1548@groupz.net> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:17:58 -0400 From: "Louis R. Andrews" Reply-To: LRAnd@groupz.net Organization: Stalking the Wild Taboo - http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Arthur Hu Subject: Re: [h-bd] Race, sex, violence References: <199904120733.AAA12600@mail4.halcyon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: Arthur, The best references on the connection between IQ and Crime are Gordon, Robert A. His article "Life as a Test," in _Intelligence_ Jan/Feb 1997 is the most accessible. See also his article " SES versus IQ in the race-IQ-delinquency model," published in the _International Journal of Sociology and social Policy_, 7. 1987. Best, Louis . +OK 5558 octets Received: from smtp11.nwnexus.com (smtp11.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by mail3.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA26640 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 03:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mc.egroups.com (mc.egroups.com [207.138.41.138]) by smtp11.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA27483 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 03:38:56 -0700 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by mc.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Apr 1999 10:38:56 -0000 Mailing-List: contact h-bd-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: h-bd@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/h-bd/ Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-h-bd@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4214 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Apr 1999 10:38:52 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 1999 10:38:52 -0000 Received: from [193.237.6.75] (helo=crispian.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10YSUo-000Akn-0B; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:38:47 +0000 Message-ID: <8B7FF8K+tFG3EwiW@crispian.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:59:26 +0100 To: Frank Salter Cc: h-bd@egroups.com From: Chris Brand In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.03a Subject: [h-bd] Re: Do genetics determine culture? Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: >We just held a symposium >(Feb. near Frankfurt am Main) to test the evolutionary hypothesis that >welfare increases with ethnic homogeneity. It does, with interesting >exceptions. > WILLIAM McDOUGALL NEWSLETTER 13 iv '99 _________________________________________ American Biodiversity LOWER CRIME IN MONO-ETHNIC COUNTRIES, SAY COUNCIL OF EUROPE'S FIGURES To: The Editor, The Economist (letters@economist.com) From: Mr C. R. Brand; Edinburgh. 26 March 1999 Dear Editor, You are to be congratulated on publicizing the likelihood that the world's leading democracy will have two million of its own population in jail by the millennium, including one million young Black men (Economist 20-26 iii '99, 'Prisoners: More than any other democracy'). Such a rate of imprisonment is especially remarkable in a country that would enforce humanitarian and multicultural principles on others by bombing Serbia, so it deserves careful study. America's problem cannot be attributed largely to Afro-Americans (or, for that matter to racism against Black people). Once IQ is allowed for, the Black rate of crime in the USA is little higher than the White.* Instead, attention should focus on the phenomenon of the rate of imprisonment being so high in both the USA and Russia. According to the Council of Europe, relatively high rates of imprisonment also obtain in Belarus, Britain, Bulgaria, Czechia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Moldova, Poland, Portugal, Romania and Slovakia (Penological Information Bulletin 21, December 1998, Table 1 and p. 105). By contrast, the lowest rates in Europe -- only a tenth of those in the USA and Russia -- are found in Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Iceland, Macedonia, Malta, Norway, Slovenia and Sweden. A prize in criminology could well go to anyone finding the explanation of these humanitarian variations; but it looks arguable that incarceration is required to deal with ethnic heterogeneity and internal conflict. (Convict-free Cyprus, of course, has been ethnically partitioned since 1965.) I am yours etc., Christopher R. Brand. * R. A. Gordon (1987). 'SES versus IQ in the race-IQ-delinquency model.' International Journal of Sociology & Social Policy 7, 30-96. __________________________________ Chris Brand Edinburgh. Author of 'The 'g' Factor' [Wiley DePublisher, 1996]. Details, psychology articles and McDougall NewsLetters [for neoliberalism]: http://www.crispian.demon.co.uk. -- "The greatest threats to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal -- well-meaning but without understanding." US Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, 1928. "There is a chilly zeal and certainty about the Prime Minister's fervour [for bombing Serbia] that stands at odds with the complex realities of an ancient tribal situation" Nicholas Pearson, 1999, The Times, 14 iv. "Milosevic is a nasty job of work, but he is not Hitler or Stalin." Simon Jenkins, 1999, The Times, 14 iv. "This is a humanitarian war." UK Chief of Defence Staff, General Sir Charles Guthrie, reported in Daily Telegraph, 15 iv 1999. "Finally, we must remember the principle we and our allies have been fighting for in the Balkans is the principle of multi-ethnic, tolerant, inclusive democracy. We have been fighting against the idea that statehood must be based entirely on ethnicity." President Bill Clinton. Reported 15 iv '99 by Associated Press -- without further coverage of when the President intended to declare a humanitarian intervention on Germany or Japan. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups eLerts! 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