+OK 7471 octets Received: from mail2.halcyon.com (mail2.halcyon.com [206.63.63.60]) by mail1.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06762 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.icehouse.net (root@mail.icehouse.net [204.203.53.2]) by mail2.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04964 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp-573.icehouse.net (ppp-573.icehouse.net [216.190.42.137]) by mail.icehouse.net (8.9.2/8.9.2/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA28879; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:38:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.16.19990221132701.38174b32@mail.icehouse.net> X-Sender: lmstuter@mail.icehouse.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (16) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:27:01 To: "Gerald W. Bracey" , , "Arthur Hu" , From: Lynn M Stuter Subject: Re: [wa-ed-deform] State schools chief wants better funding from lawmakers In-Reply-To: <002001be5de3$140fed20$4b78accf@gbracey> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Status: The NAEP? The NAEP is an assessment --it is not a credible test of a child's ability by any standard except the government's. You know, Mr Bracey, I realize you attempt to speak with GREAT authority, but I note you fail to provide evidence. Let's have the evidence -- cold, hard facts, Mr Bracey -- I don't want your assertions, assumptions, or contentions. I'll give you some cold hard facts -- Mr Bracey. On the WASL -- the Washington Assessment of Student Learning, in 1997, (4th grade level) the private schools in Washington State aced the WASL -- they so far outscored the public schools that their scores were not published when the 1998 WASL scores were published. Aggregated, the following are the private school scores on the WASL: Math: 37.3 Reading: 70.1 Writing: 60.8 Listening: 78.7 Following are the same scores for the government schools: Math 21.1 Reading: 47.0 Writing: 41.7 Listening: 61.3 To quote you " there is much more by-the-book, regimented, drill sargent teaching in private schools." On that I will agree because most private schools are into educating for intelligence, they are not into conditioning children as are the government schools. These private schools are into teaching children how to think and giving them a broad base of knowledge such that they can think and reason, while the government schools are into socializing children and teaching them what to think, not how to think or reason. A vast difference. An intelligent child is a boon to society -- they are intelligent, well-mannered, respectful, hard working and productive. A conditioned child, on the other hand, is one who hasn't a qualm about taking a gun and splattering somebodies brains all over the place. Given my druthers, I'll take the first anytime. An intelligent child is conducive to a civilized society while a conditioned child is conducive to chaos and a decadent society. Lynn M Stuter At 01:42 PM 2/21/99 -0800, Gerald W. Bracey wrote: >The fact is, private schools DO NOT turn out better students for less. If you control for parental income and parental education level, there is no difference betwee private and public schools on National Assessment of Educational Progress tests. > >In the most recent science assessment, NAEP 1996 Science Report Card, the difference between public and private are greatest at the lowest grade and for thoe lower percentiles. This is selectivity of the privates. But by the time you get to the 12th grade and the upper percentiles, public schools outperform private schools. > >This would appear to confirm a less formal assessment about three years ago by Money magazine. Money editors declared that they were shocked. But they found that public schools in suburbs had better facilities, richer course offerings, far more extra-curricular offerings and more experienced teachers. Money concluded that people who live in suburbs and send their kids to private schools are wasting their money. > >The appearance of doing it for less is often deceiving. Church affiliated schools often have large subsidies that don't show up as part of the Per Pupil Expenditures. You can't tell what private schools are spending by looking at their tuition rates. > >It is also mistaken to think that kids get a better education in private schools. As Peter Cookson observed in his 1994 book on school choice, there is much more by-the-book, regimented, drill sargent teaching in private schools. > >Gerald W. Bracey >Alexandria, VA > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Arthur Hu ; Lynn M Stuter >To: wa-ed-deform@egroups.com ; krs@p.tribnet.com >Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 10:00 AM >Subject: [wa-ed-deform] State schools chief wants better funding from lawmakers > > >Why is it that private and parochial schools can turn out better educated >children for roughly one-third the cost of public schools? > >Why is it that the solution from political pundits like Terry Bergeson >always is that "we need more money"? > >What have we gotten for five years of education reform in the state of >Washington? Are kids learning more? They can tell you how they feel >about math, science and English, but don't know where Los Angeles, Houston, >or New York are; can't conjugate a verb, diagram a sentence or articulate >their thoughts on paper, can't spell, can't write, can't do a simple >algebraic equation; haven't had Physics, Geometry, Algebra II, Chemistry, >Trigonometry, Calculus, American History, American Government, Civics, >Literature or Composition; they can't think, they can't read, and logic is >out of the question; but they are all good little environmentalists -- not >based on fact, but based on the conjecture and the doomsday prophecies of >rabid environmentalists. > >What has education reform cost the people of Washington state -- in both >state and federal money? The answer is in the billions, with only a very >small percentage of that having going for anything in the classroom -- the >remainder has gone to establish, maintain, and sustain the system. We have >lined the pockets of a lot of facilitators, consultants and design teams. >What we haven't done is given kids a good education such that they can >reach for the star or stars of their choice. Performance-based education >is not about producing an intelligent populace, it is about producing a not >too well educated workforce -- cooperative, collaborative, compliant. > >Why isn't the media reporting on any of this? Are you people simply the >mouth piece for political pundits like Terry Bergeson? Maybe a name chang >is in order? How about the Political Pundits Pontificator? What ever >happened to investigative reporting? What ever happened to exposing the >truth? > >Lynn M Stuter >Nine Mile Falls, WA > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > >eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/wa-ed-deform >Free Web-based e-mail groups by www.eGroups.com > > >Attachment Converted: "C:\EUDORA\ATTACH\Rewa-ed-.htm" > .