e:\doc\web\99\03\treis.txt Albert Himoe is skeptical \doc\web\99\03\treis.txt From: Albert Himoe Subject: Re: [Upstream] Study Habits = success In-Reply-To: <36C346D5.A2214319@cycad.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NPUE_C.A.uqD.X27w2"@onn.pair.com> Resent-From: upstream-list@cycad.com Reply-To: upstream-list@cycad.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1490 X-Loop: upstream-list@cycad.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: upstream-list-request@cycad.com Status: At 04:08 PM 2/11/99 -0500, Gavan Tredoux wrote: [ From a William Raspberry column] Philip Uri Treisman wishes you wouldn't think of his Emerging Scholars Program as some sort of miracle. I've posted on Treisman before. I'm extremely skeptical of this guy. First, Treisman's "method" is simply to organize the students into small groups with a tutor, and meeting often to go over math problems. Suspiciously, the first example of activities in these sessions that he mentions is "going over old chestnuts", problems which often occur on math tests. He also has never published a study of the effectiveness of his methods, and in fact as best as I can tell published exactly one paper in his life, in the Journal of Negro Education, showing his students [self-selected] did well in beginning calculus, considerably better than students that didn't participate in his program. In a published lecture, he quoted spectacular results by other using his methods. I was unable to find any published study verifying such results either. Albert Himoe Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:00:22 -0500 From: anita jamar Organization: University of Cincinnati, ECE/CS News Server Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 Very good article Aruthur. Gives us all some things to think about. Anita Arthur Hu wrote: > Raspberry is African American. See link for entire copyrighted article > > Ever notice that Asians worry the least about race and political power > and the most about high grades and test scores? Yet what is the outcome > of black pre-occupation with > affirmative action, number of black teachers, ebonics, and > multiculturalism? > > Which ethnic group has a strategy that produces academic success? > Political power? > ect: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:17:50 GMT From: zvzulndr@ipass.net (Ziv Zulander) Organization: iPass.Net Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 On Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:00:22 -0500, anita jamar wrote: >Very good article Aruthur. Gives us all some things to think >about. Anita > Not really. Just more of Hu's obsession with Black people. Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:12:10 GMT From: "mst" Organization: @Home Network Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 , 3 To me, the most interesting line was about the Asian engineering students who really wanted to be poets...as if there wasn't bound to be some serious issues arising from that kind of denial. Perhaps, as an African American, Raspberry doesn't recognize the psychological damage that has been perpetuated in the Asian community from this sort of pressure...it may not be as obvious as the anti-academic pressure African Americans face, but there is a serious social cost, regardless. Quote: "Chinese kids, some of whom wanted to be poets, were all enrolled in engineering. I mean, they dealt with issues of identity, but usually after they dealt with their academic issues. For black and brown students, it was devastatingly different, and instead of dealing with it, we messed it up further." I would argue that these Chinese kids are going to be VERY messed up in the future. You can't have your cake and eat it too...by sacrificing personal, emotional fulfillment for status and approval, you lose an important part of yourself. I've seen it happen, I'm SEEING it happen...and until we allow our children to pursue their innermost dreams, we're dooming them to years of hidden misery. -- Teri ++++ "Well, since you got here by not thinking, it seems reasonable Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:12:40 -0500 From: "Mary" Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta GA, USA Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 mst wrote >I would argue that these Chinese kids are going to be VERY messed up in the >future. You can't have your cake and eat it too...by sacrificing personal, >emotional fulfillment for status and approval, you lose an important part of >yourself. I've seen it happen, I'm SEEING it happen...and until we allow >our children to pursue their innermost dreams, we're dooming them to years >of hidden misery. I've seen _some_ African American kids who don't want to go to College. They just want to make music or play a sport, and they go for it! Well, everyone should go to high school, but apart from that, it should be what you want to do. These people must have at the back of their minds that to have several degrees is the in thing (or generally respected thing) nowadays, but they follow their hearts, anyways. Results [my few examples, of course]: 1] we all know Michael Jordan 2] Master P is one of the five Richest people in America 3] Rap outsold country in 1998 http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,19134,00.html well, I'll cut the URL's story to the chase, below: Consider the numbers. In 1998, for the first time ever, rap outsold what previously had been America's top-selling format, country music. Rap sold more than 81 million CDs, tapes and albums last year, compared with 72 million for country. Rap sales increased a stunning 31% from 1997 to 1998, in contrast to 2% gains for country, 6% for rock and 9% for the music industry overall. Boasts rapper Jay-Z, whose current album, Vol. 2...Hard Knock Life (Def Jam), has sold more than 3 million copies: "Hip-hop is the rebellious voice of the youth. It's what people want to hear." People should feel free to do what they want to do, so long as it does not break the law. I choose to go to Colege. Go fig ;) Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:12:40 -0500 From: "Mary" Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta GA, USA Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 mst wrote >I would argue that these Chinese kids are going to be VERY messed up in the >future. You can't have your cake and eat it too...by sacrificing personal, >emotional fulfillment for status and approval, you lose an important part of >yourself. I've seen it happen, I'm SEEING it happen...and until we allow >our children to pursue their innermost dreams, we're dooming them to years >of hidden misery. I've seen _some_ African American kids who don't want to go to College. They just want to make music or play a sport, and they go for it! Well, everyone should go to high school, but apart from that, it should be what you want to do. These people must have at the back of their minds that to have several degrees is the in thing (or generally respected thing) nowadays, but they follow their hearts, anyways. Results [my few examples, of course]: 1] we all know Michael Jordan 2] Master P is one of the five Richest people in America 3] Rap outsold country in 1998 http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,19134,00.html well, I'll cut the URL's story to the chase, below: Consider the numbers. In 1998, for the first time ever, rap outsold what previously had been America's top-selling format, country music. Rap sold more than 81 million CDs, tapes and albums last year, compared with 72 million for country. Rap sales increased a stunning 31% from 1997 to 1998, in contrast to 2% gains for country, 6% for rock and 9% for the music industry overall. Boasts rapper Jay-Z, whose current album, Vol. 2...Hard Knock Life (Def Jam), has sold more than 3 million copies: "Hip-hop is the rebellious voice of the youth. It's what people want to hear." People should feel free to do what they want to do, so long as it does not break the law. I choose to go to Colege. Go fig ;) > > People should feel free to do what they want to do, so long as it does not > break the law. I choose to go to Colege. Go fig ;) True enough, but if too many Blacks choose one-in-a-million type dreams like pro-hoops or rap--without a solid backup in education--it is not a healthy development for the community. From: "Mary" Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta GA, USA Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 Charles Bryant wrote >True enough, but if too many Blacks choose one-in-a-million type dreams >like pro-hoops or rap--without a solid backup in education--it is not a >healthy development for the community. high school sounds good, and there are more and more degrees out everyday. The_kids_interested could go for those :) Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: 13 Feb 1999 17:52:37 PST From: youondruugs Organization: Concentric Internet Services Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 Mary wrote: > > I've seen _some_ African American kids who don't want to go to College. Most Americans that I know have not been to college. > They > just want to make music or play a sport, and they go for it! Most Americans that I know despise school and see education as a chore. > Well, everyone > should go to high school, but apart from that, it should be what you want to > do. These people must have at the back of their minds that to have several > degrees is the in thing (or generally respected thing) nowadays, but they > follow their hearts, anyways. The African Americans that I do know that went to college or further are making a lot of money ($60,000 to $120,000 a year) and are successful in their careers. > Results [my few examples, of course]: > > 1] we all know Michael Jordan I find Michael Jordan extremely boring, although I know other people who absolutely idolize him. > 2] Master P is one of the five Richest people in America He's a Master of P? I've actually never heard of him... but then again, I don't watch much TV. > 3] Rap outsold country in 1998 Rap music is loud and angry but tends to offer no solution other than more anger. Before you flame away, flame me based on the fact that the above is only my opinion. > well, I'll cut the URL's story to the chase, below: > > Consider the numbers. In 1998, for the first time ever, rap outsold what > previously had been America's top-selling format, country music. Rap sold > more than 81 million CDs, tapes and albums last year, compared with 72 > million for country. Rap sales increased a stunning 31% from 1997 to 1998, > in contrast to 2% gains for country, 6% for rock and 9% for the music > industry overall. Boasts rapper Jay-Z, whose current album, Vol. 2...Hard > Knock Life (Def Jam), has sold more than 3 million copies: "Hip-hop is the > rebellious voice of the youth. It's what people want to hear." I'm sorry, I equate Rap with Disco. > People should feel free to do what they want to do, so long as it does not > break the law. I choose to go to College. Go fig ;) Go fig? When you, at some point in your life, get downsized or laid off, you will have the intellectual flexibility to reset your course and steer off into a new career, while the majority of your less well educated peers (the Michael Jordans of the world, notwithstanding) will be left high and dry. This adaptability makes for a happier and more successful individual (the Ted Kacyznskis of the world, notwithstanding). Smart. Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: 13 Feb 1999 17:39:48 PST From: youondruugs Organization: Concentric Internet Services Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 mst wrote: > > I would argue that these Chinese kids are going to be VERY messed up in the > future. You can't have your cake and eat it too...by sacrificing personal, > emotional fulfillment for status and approval, you lose an important part of > yourself. I've seen it happen, I'm SEEING it happen...and until we allow > our children to pursue their innermost dreams, we're dooming them to years > of hidden misery. > > -- > Teri Poetry vs. Engineering? Depends on how you look at it. To envision the beauty of form and emotion as evoked by the arrangement of words is not necessarily superior to the same vision skillfully exercised in an ingeniously and beautifully engineered structure or process. It may not also necessarily leave the designer less fulfilled. (Although it's harder to impress girls with a REally nicely implemented plan of a suspension bridge.) Perhaps one form is more obvious than another in the rendition of beauty or perhaps begs more personal attention for ulterior motives. Finally, (using only the French icon of poet laureates) wearing a beret and sitting around coffeehouses scribbling notes on the tablecloth can be personally intriguing to the extent of narcissistic delusion, but a really well-designed bridge can support an entire community -- and the Chinese are a very socially oriented people. So, I believe you CAN have your cake and eat it, too. -- DEA Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 04:57:17 GMT From: "mst" Organization: @Home Network Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 youondruugs wrote in message <36C62984.D80EB9A1@concentric.net>... >Poetry vs. Engineering? Depends on how you look at it. To envision the >beauty of form and emotion as evoked by the arrangement of words is not >necessarily superior to the same vision skillfully exercised in an >ingeniously and beautifully engineered structure or process. Of course...if engineering pushes your buttons, I think it's great that you pursue it. What I find damaging is the pressure for kids who have NO intrinsic skill or passion for the subject being forced to study it, and becoming mediocre engineers (or doctors or physicists or whatever) at that, when they COULD HAVE been very talented poets (or musicians or painters or whatever). It's just that I see WAY too many stressed out high school kids who are applying to prestigious universities in majors they are not interested in just to make mommy and daddy happy. I've had students come to me crying about fights with their parents who refuse to understand why they want to go to art school, kids who have ulcers because they're enrolled in five AP classes that they can't handle, kids who have low self-esteem because their GPA is .3 points lower than perfect. This is no way to raise a generation that will lead the future. >It may not also necessarily leave the designer less fulfilled. >(Although it's harder to impress girls with a REally nicely implemented >plan of a suspension bridge.) That would depend. My husband is an architecture student...I'm often impressed by his designs...it's certainly better than his poetry. >Finally, (using only the French icon of poet laureates) wearing a beret >and sitting around coffeehouses scribbling notes on the tablecloth can >be personally intriguing to the extent of narcissistic delusion, but a >really well-designed bridge can support an entire community -- and the >Chinese are a very socially oriented people. I think the key here is "well-designed." If you don't really want to do it, how can you do a good job? It's not that I don't think we need engineers, I just wonder if we really want ones that entered into the profession due to parental pressure rather than due to personal interest. I'm afraid that would only lead to more poorly designed bridges, like the Tacoma Narrows, which collapsed in a strong wind due to shoddy engineering. Bad poetry, on the other hand, only hurts the literary reputation of the poet. >So, I believe you CAN have your cake and eat it, too. I think we might be talking about different cakes. -- Teri ++++ "Well, since you got here by not thinking, it seems reasonable to expect that, in order to get out, you must start thinking." Tock the Watchdog Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:31:52 GMT From: Rice@Monger.mil (Rice Monger) Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 Screw all this one-career talk. Life is about doing a few different things. You gotta make some money to get along, or all you'll be doing is working long hours for The Man. I looked at my hard working parents and said "that shit ain't for me." That's not to say I don't work hard, because I do, but it's the perspective that's different. Work, in itself, is no great reward. It can fulfill you only as much as the boss will allow, and I don't want to throw my destiny into the hands of the nearest profiteer. This being such a rich country, all people, be they Asian or not, owe it to themselves to chase a dream now and again. But, reality is where the real miracle of living takes place, not in the chasing dreams. You have to tune into the rest of society just enough so that society will tolerate your flights of fancy. You have to give up something to the machine to get your treat. Flip that around, and it's clear that our society could support a lot more dreaming. We, as a society, are not demanding enough in our vacation and holiday rights. We have not bargained enough for vacation. We have fewer and fewer workplace rights. The fact that an immigrant worker, an african american guard, and the poor white don't get a real vacation diminishes us all, especially us middle class types. If these people at the bottom of the power pyramid aren't free to chase dreams, how much right does everyone else have? If all people cannot enjoy the optimism that our affluence should afford, should any of us look forward to the future? John Kawakami vogon@riceball.com http://www.riceball.com/ethnoveg - the ethnic studies + vegetarianism list Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:49:13 -0500 From: cindy cin cin cheng Organization: Queen's University Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 Rice Monger (or whatever your name is), Money isn't everything. Why does money have to BE everything with Asians? All my cousins care about is whether they'd have enough money to send their future kids to private school or not. I personally would rather be happy doing WHAT I want, and if that means being the next Sarah Brightman, so be it. So what if I have to live in a shabby apartment? At least I'm doing what I want, right? Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 22:49:27 GMT From: asian_gyro@hotmail.com (moo shu guy) Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 In article <36C6F079.739F@yahoo.com>, petitecosette@yahoo.com wrote: > Rice Monger (or whatever your name is), > Money isn't everything. Why does money have to BE everything with > Asians? All my cousins care about is whether they'd have enough money > to send their future kids to private school or not. I personally would > rather be happy doing WHAT I want, and if that means being the next > Sarah Brightman, so be it. So what if I have to live in a shabby > apartment? At least I'm doing what I want, right? well, it isn't EVERYTHING, but it's pretty important. ok, maybe your cousins are totally over the top, depending on how crappy the public system is where they live. chasing your dreams doesn't necessarily mean doing what you want. ever try and live on minimum wage? i did for 1 summer, and it sucked bigtime, lots of ramen meals, rice with one egg for dinner, and actually my parents helped me out some, plus i got a pretty good deal on housing, forget it if i had to pay regular market rates (students who like to hold onto their apartments sublet pretty cheap). msg -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:06:11 -0500 From: cindy cin cin cheng Organization: Queen's University Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 So you're saying that I should give up Broadway?? So you're saying that I shouldn't sing at all? What's that matter, jealous that I sing?? Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:11:18 -0800 From: Walter Lee Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 money is not everything. but money/economics must be address when consider how one must sustain a livelihood a way of life. We need dreams and hopes to inspire us to a better future, we need practical plans, skill, and hard work to build a future. Each person has different needs. I remember reading that Thomas Edison once said that "success was 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration." But each person will want to make their own mix. cindy cin cin cheng wrote: > > Rice Monger (or whatever your name is), > > Money isn't everything. Why does money have to BE everything with > Asians? All my cousins care about is whether they'd have enough money > to send their future kids to private school or not. I personally would > rather be happy doing WHAT I want, and if that means being the next > Sarah Brightman, so be it. So what if I have to live in a shabby > apartment? At least I'm doing what I want, right? Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:54:32 GMT From: "mst" Organization: @Home Network Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 Rice Monger wrote in message <36c6dc18.19199056@news.earthlink.net>... >Screw all this one-career talk. Life is about doing a few different >things. You gotta make some money to get along, or all you'll be >doing is working long hours for The Man. Regardless of your career(s) choices, it should always be something you'll find some degree of personal satisfaction in doing. It may not be a "perfect" job, but it should combine a livable wage with emotional and mental fulfillment. What I'm seeing are kids, 17, 18 years old, who are already suffering from a form of mid-life crisis because they aren't being ALLOWED to pursue careers that they're interested in. Specific example: I have one student, an Indian male, very smart, tough, creative and funny as hell. He does well in most classes, but has a LOVE for cooking...the kind of passion where he rushes home from school to whip up a snack, his idea of a dream date is cooking dinner for his girlfriend (who is also a student of mine, and she tells me he really IS a good cook). His father is forcing him to apply to the College of Engineering at Berkeley...won't consider California Culinery Academy or any other possibilities, it's Berkeley or nothing. The kid's smart, has pretty good grades, but not anywhere close to a shoo-in for engineering at Cal. The stress he's undergoing has affected EVERYTHING in his life, his relationship with his girlfriend, his grades, his family relationships, and all because the rigidity of his parents' expectations won't allow them to see other definitions of "success." The kid's said to me, "Yeah, I would be an ok engineer, but I'd be a GREAT chef." That says it all, I think. Do we want to promote mediocrity or do we want inspired, passionate people doing what they love? As far as vacations go...I'm a teacher, I can't complain. And I love my job, not only is it very fulfilling, it pays well enough for me to support 3 kids and a mortgage...and I'm not yet 30. Who says teaching doesn't pay? -- Teri ++++ "Well, since you got here by not thinking, it seems reasonable to expect that, in order to get out, you must start thinking." Tock the Watchdog Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:49:55 -0500 From: "Mary" Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta GA, USA Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 mst wrote >Specific example: I have one student, an Indian male, very smart, tough, >creative and funny as hell. He does well in most classes, but has a LOVE >for cooking...the kind of passion where he rushes home from school to whip >up a snack, his idea of a dream date is cooking dinner for his girlfriend >(who is also a student of mine, and she tells me he really IS a good cook). >His father is forcing him to apply to the College of Engineering at >Berkeley... Yep. My ex-roommate (at Georgia Institute of Technology) is Indian. She performed quite miserably in her science courses, and later told me that she always wanted to do some art course in another college. But her dad wanted her to be an Engineer, and her Mom did too. After some time, the stress from performing poorly became too much for her, and her dad decided that she could finally go to the school of her first choice. Still, her Mom would not let her transfer to where her heart belonged. Well, somehow, she caught up, and is now doing fine. Although she keeps the grades up, I would still feel better if she got to go to where she wanted to. Sad, eh? >As far as vacations go...I'm a teacher, I can't complain. And I love my >job, not only is it very fulfilling, it pays well enough for me to support 3 >kids and a mortgage...and I'm not yet 30. Who says teaching doesn't pay? I'm happy to hear that you're doing fine. Teaching is a noble profession :) Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: 14 Feb 1999 01:19:11 GMT From: Charles Bryant Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 Arthur Hu wrote: > > Raspberry is African American. See link for entire copyrighted article > > Ever notice that Asians worry the least about race and political power > and the most about high grades and test scores? Yet what is the outcome > of black pre-occupation with > affirmative action, number of black teachers, ebonics, and > multiculturalism? Ouch. > > Which ethnic group has a strategy that produces academic success? > Political power? Ouch. > Are Asians really fools for choosing academic achievement over political > power? Ouch. > And are blacks wise for concentrating on political power where they are > far > more successful than Asians instead of academic achievement? Rabble-rousing is what you do when hitting the books is just too boring and too much freakin' work. Look, man, come on here and tell the truth like this and we're gonna really fuck you over. You need some lessons in racial etiquette. Subject: Re: Chinese worry about academics first, then race, identity Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 05:46:26 GMT From: "mst" Organization: @Home Network Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american, soc.culture.african.american References: 1 , 2 I don't think any one group has a "better" approach to gaining access to power than any other. If anything, the smart thing to do is to combine the different "spheres of influence" held by different minorities so that we can all benefit from a more balanced society. Many of our issues are essentially the same, it's silly to be wasting resources solving the same problems separately. Asian Americans may be more academic, African Americans may be more political, white Americans may have more economic clout...so what? The bottom line is that we all live in this society, and unless we WANT power to be concentrated in divisive clusters, we should look at ways to consolidate what we have. How are we going to do that? Beats me...we'll have to trust each other first, and when you have people like Arthur Hu posting things like this, it's not going to happen. Hell, *I* don't trust him and we're both Chinese. -- Teri ++++ "Well, since you got here by not thinking, it seems reasonable to expect that, in order to get out, you must start thinking." Tock the Watchdog