+OK 10269 octets Received: from smtp01.nwnexus.com (smtp01.nwnexus.com [198.137.231.16]) by mail1.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA15512 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:12:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by smtp01.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26522 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:07:55 -0800 Received: from gbracey (207-172-52-66.s66.tnt1.brd.erols.com [207.172.52.66]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA08438; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 17:07:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002701be5dff$b32f0780$4b78accf@gbracey> Reply-To: "Gerald W. Bracey" From: "Gerald W. Bracey" To: , "Arthur Hu" , , "Lynn M Stuter" Subject: Re: [wa-ed-deform] State schools chief wants better funding from lawmakers Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 17:07:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Status: Somehow I get the feeling that you are not particularly interested in receiving any FACTS. They would only confuse you. But, in case you want to, "The Brace Report on the Condition of Public Education" has appeared each October in Phi Delta Kappan since 1991. The first was actually called "Why Can't They Be Like We Were?" because I had no intention of writing a series. The editors later decided to make it an actual event and gave it its name. The first occurred when I just happened onto a ton of data to show that the Reagan and Bush administrations had lied through their teeth by publishing such propaganda as "A Nation At Risk" and suppressing such other studies as "Perspectives On Education in America" and 178 page report widely known simply as "The Sandia Report" because it was compiled by Sandia engineers in New Mexico. By the way, even one of my antagonists, Lou Gerstner, CEO of IBM has called Kappan the best educational periodical in the country (his book "Reinventing Education," page 8). The first 7 Bracey reports were assembled into a book called "The TRUTH About America's Schools" by Kappan editors. you can get it from them or me, same price $25 (I'll toss in the 8th report as a bonus). Also, more issue oriented is "Setting the Record Straight: Responses to Misconceptions About Education in the United States." It was published by the Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development and I currently have no issues so you'll have to go to them. They've mover and I don't have their new address, but it's still here in Alexandria, VA. Here are samples from the Science Report Card, page 35. 4th grade, 10th percentile: public 148 non-p 163 Catholic 163 Grade 12 75th percentile Public 174 Private 175 Catholic 174 90th percentile Public 192 Private 191 Catholic 190 "Private" includes Catholic and non-Catholic. So there you are. There's lots more where that came from.....if you're interested. Private schools are used by wealthier, better educated parents. If you factor that out, you always wipe out the differences in performance. In the above NAEP data, you don't even have to. -----Original Message----- From: Lynn M Stuter To: Gerald W. Bracey ; wa-ed-deform@egroups.com ; Arthur Hu ; krs@p.tribnet.com Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 1:38 PM Subject: Re: [wa-ed-deform] State schools chief wants better funding from lawmakers >The NAEP? The NAEP is an assessment --it is not a credible test of a >child's ability by any standard except the government's. You know, Mr >Bracey, I realize you attempt to speak with GREAT authority, but I note you >fail to provide evidence. Let's have the evidence -- cold, hard facts, Mr >Bracey -- I don't want your assertions, assumptions, or contentions. > >I'll give you some cold hard facts -- Mr Bracey. On the WASL -- the >Washington Assessment of Student Learning, in 1997, (4th grade level) the >private schools in Washington State aced the WASL -- they so far outscored >the public schools that their scores were not published when the 1998 WASL >scores were published. Aggregated, the following are the private school >scores on the WASL: > >Math: 37.3 Reading: 70.1 Writing: 60.8 Listening: 78.7 > >Following are the same scores for the government schools: > >Math 21.1 Reading: 47.0 Writing: 41.7 Listening: 61.3 > >To quote you " there is much more by-the-book, regimented, drill sargent >teaching in private schools." On that I will agree because most private >schools are into educating for intelligence, they are not into conditioning >children as are the government schools. These private schools are into >teaching children how to think and giving them a broad base of knowledge >such that they can think and reason, while the government schools are into >socializing children and teaching them what to think, not how to think or >reason. A vast difference. An intelligent child is a boon to society -- >they are intelligent, well-mannered, respectful, hard working and >productive. A conditioned child, on the other hand, is one who hasn't a >qualm about taking a gun and splattering somebodies brains all over the >place. Given my druthers, I'll take the first anytime. An intelligent >child is conducive to a civilized society while a conditioned child is >conducive to chaos and a decadent society. > >Lynn M Stuter > > >At 01:42 PM 2/21/99 -0800, Gerald W. Bracey wrote: >>The fact is, private schools DO NOT turn out better students for less. If >you control for parental income and parental education level, there is no >difference betwee private and public schools on National Assessment of >Educational Progress tests. >> >>In the most recent science assessment, NAEP 1996 Science Report Card, the >difference between public and private are greatest at the lowest grade and >for thoe lower percentiles. This is selectivity of the privates. But by >the time you get to the 12th grade and the upper percentiles, public >schools outperform private schools. >> >>This would appear to confirm a less formal assessment about three years >ago by Money magazine. Money editors declared that they were shocked. But >they found that public schools in suburbs had better facilities, richer >course offerings, far more extra-curricular offerings and more experienced >teachers. Money concluded that people who live in suburbs and send their >kids to private schools are wasting their money. >> >>The appearance of doing it for less is often deceiving. Church affiliated >schools often have large subsidies that don't show up as part of the Per >Pupil Expenditures. You can't tell what private schools are spending by >looking at their tuition rates. >> >>It is also mistaken to think that kids get a better education in private >schools. As Peter Cookson observed in his 1994 book on school choice, >there is much more by-the-book, regimented, drill sargent teaching in >private schools. >> >>Gerald W. Bracey >>Alexandria, VA >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Arthur Hu ; Lynn M Stuter >>To: wa-ed-deform@egroups.com ; krs@p.tribnet.com > >>Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 10:00 AM >>Subject: [wa-ed-deform] State schools chief wants better funding from >lawmakers >> >> >>Why is it that private and parochial schools can turn out better educated >>children for roughly one-third the cost of public schools? >> >>Why is it that the solution from political pundits like Terry Bergeson >>always is that "we need more money"? >> >>What have we gotten for five years of education reform in the state of >>Washington? Are kids learning more? They can tell you how they feel >>about math, science and English, but don't know where Los Angeles, Houston, >>or New York are; can't conjugate a verb, diagram a sentence or articulate >>their thoughts on paper, can't spell, can't write, can't do a simple >>algebraic equation; haven't had Physics, Geometry, Algebra II, Chemistry, >>Trigonometry, Calculus, American History, American Government, Civics, >>Literature or Composition; they can't think, they can't read, and logic is >>out of the question; but they are all good little environmentalists -- not >>based on fact, but based on the conjecture and the doomsday prophecies of >>rabid environmentalists. >> >>What has education reform cost the people of Washington state -- in both >>state and federal money? The answer is in the billions, with only a very >>small percentage of that having going for anything in the classroom -- the >>remainder has gone to establish, maintain, and sustain the system. We have >>lined the pockets of a lot of facilitators, consultants and design teams. >>What we haven't done is given kids a good education such that they can >>reach for the star or stars of their choice. Performance-based education >>is not about producing an intelligent populace, it is about producing a not >>too well educated workforce -- cooperative, collaborative, compliant. >> >>Why isn't the media reporting on any of this? Are you people simply the >>mouth piece for political pundits like Terry Bergeson? Maybe a name chang >>is in order? How about the Political Pundits Pontificator? What ever >>happened to investigative reporting? What ever happened to exposing the >>truth? >> >>Lynn M Stuter >>Nine Mile Falls, WA >> >> >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >----- >> >>eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/wa-ed-deform >>Free Web-based e-mail groups by www.eGroups.com >> >> >>Attachment Converted: "C:\EUDORA\ATTACH\Rewa-ed-.htm" >> .