32>> Elite Skyline introduces standards from hell, gives CD to 40% of students
31 Baltimore auto-hires 35% of teachers from 2 black colleges
30 Comments on Illinois ISAT test
29 Core plus is a disaster
28>> Moving advanced classes to G10
27>> Seattle choses new superintendent
26>> Asians vulnerable to  AIDS too.

25>> safe schools has gender quotas built in
24>> bracey on Asians lower naep scores
23>> math grade level scale
22>> article on treisman
21>> go ahead and run
20>> Howard Gardner doesn't mention race as criterion
19>> naep criterion bad
18>> testing is not valid
17>> ed reform as issue
16>> vs hihn
15>> wants some criterion reference accountability
14>> excellent letter to seattle times
13>> naep says students are terrible in reading
12>> hihn on obe 
11>> us still sucks
10>> score gap says traditional race-based approach doesn't work
9>> City Journal
8>> Physics day a lot for 4th graders
7>> CA looking at exit exams that are causing problems in other states
6>> only 4% need high math and science skills for their jobs
5>> Bracey says Asian Americans do well
4>> Stanford's Rice in trouble for not enforcing quotas
3>> first bracey timss article
2>> Bracey rips TIMSS
1>> instructional validity


1>>


Pulled this out of Gerald Bracey's Sept 1998 attack on the TIMSS.
See, he _does_ have some useful stuff in pointing out the madness of
minimum competence testing (evidently standards-based education has
revived this bad idea from the 70s), and how to sue a test that does
not have instructional validity - testing for what students have not
been taught, which is precisely what the WASL and other assessments
do by trying to force a competely new curriculum which does not
correspond to current standards.


\clip\99\05\timss\timss.txt
Kappan Professional Journal
September 1998
URL: http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kbra9809.htm
Tinkering with TIMSS By Gerald W. Bracey


"Forgione was director of testing for the state of Connecticut for a
number of years. During his tenure, the minimum-competency-testing
madness swept the country, culminating, in one sense, with the 1978
ruling in Debra P. v. Turlington.  In that decision, the court held
that for a test to be used to qualify students for high school
graduation, the state had to prove that the test had instructional
validity. That is, the state had to show that students had had an
opportunity to learn the material tested...  ..issues were discussed
at considerable length in The Courts, Validity, and Minimum
Competency Testing, edited by George Madaus of Boston College they
stated, "If tests without instructional validity are being used for
certification, the students who fail such tests are being penalized
for the failures of the schools and teachers -- and not for their own
inadequacies. The rational basis for judging student performance in
school is undermined."




2>>
Gerald Bracey has done a good job of ripping apart the notion that the TIMSS does an accurate job of ranking US high school students
at the bottom of the heap. If our students are so bad, why are 
Intel, Microsoft, Boeing, Ford and GM cleaning up their respective 
world markets?


Most US students take advanced science and calculus in college, 
and most other nations send only half as many students to
college as our 60%. Most high school studnets at grade 12 in other
countries are in apprenticeships learning how to fasten bolts for
Volkswagen while our students are prepping for college.




\clip\99\05\timss\timss.txt
Kappan Professional Journal
September 1998
URL: http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kbra9809.htm
Tinkering with TIMSS By Gerald W. Bracey


                       Despite Commissioner Forgione's attempt to put


3>>
2>> Bracey rips TIMSS
1>> instructional validity


1>>


Pulled this out of Gerald Bracey's Sept 1998 attack on the TIMSS.
See, he _does_ have some useful stuff in pointing out the madness of
minimum competence testing (evidently standards-based education has
revived this bad idea from the 70s), and how to sue a test that does
not have instructional validity - testing for what students have not
been taught, which is precisely what the WASL and other assessments
do by trying to force a competely new curriculum which does not
correspond to current standards.


\clip\99\05\timss\timss.txt
Kappan Professional Journal
September 1998
URL: http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kbra9809.htm


3>>
Here's the first bracey article on TIMSS. All this focus on high school grads ignores that the US is the only nation with truly world
class schools. Nobody else has MIT or CalTech or UC Berkeley in
engineering , nor an Intel or Microsoft. Most other nations send only half as many kids to college. This is probably where Marc Tucker got his idea of "redefining" college - he proposed turning the 
last 2 years of high school and 1 or 2 years of college into something that would give you a vocational credential, much as 
you can get an NVQ diploma in hairdressing or burger flipping in
Britain.


\clip\99\05\timss\dims.txt
Kappan Professional Journal
8 May 1998

URL: http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kbra9805.htm


TIMSS, Rhymes with 'Dims,' As in 'Witted' By Gerald W. Bracey
Simplistic and misleading statements seriously distort
what th




4>>
Interesting when they hired Rice, an expert on E. Europe and a 
conservative to run affirmative action because she's a black woman.


Now Clinton adminstration is going to penalize Stanford for not
implementing explicit preferences and quotas.


RICE SAYS NO TO GOALS, PREFERENCES, US SAYS THAT'S A VIOLATION
\clip\99\05\rice.txt February 2, 1999, in the San Jose Mercury News 
  U.S. probes Stanford promotion policies BY MICHELLE LEVANDER


5>>


Pardon for yet more bracey material, but Bracey, Howard Wainer and I
all agree that the NAEP and TIMSS put Asians Americans at the top of
the world heap. Bracey even mentioned by observation that Asians do
well even with many of them go to the same failing schools in LA,
Oakland, and San Francisco that fail blacks. (and blacks fail at
schools in Fairfax County and Cupertino Ca, Bellevue WA where Asians
do fabulously)


This argues that much of the battle is at home and lies in education
culture when Asians appear to be largely immune to bad schools.


US ASIANS ARE BEST IN THE WORLD
TAIWAN HAS BETTER AVERAGE, BUT IOWA HAS MUCH HIGHER FLOOR
http://www.kiva.net/~pdkintl/kappan/kres9811.htm
\clip\99\05\bracres.txt
Test Scores of Nations and States
By Gerald W. Bracey




6>>




http://www.kiva.net/~pdkintl/kappan/kbra9810.htm The Eighth Bracey
Report on the Condition of Public Education By Gerald W. Bracey


.. our obsession with math and science, which has led us to overstate
the number of people who need high skills in these fields. Borrowing
from the study by Anthony Carnevale and Stephen Rose (discussed in

"The Statistics from Thin Air Award"), Samuelson concludes that
scientists, computer scientists, engineers, accountants, programmers,
and business financial officers -- people who need advanced math or
science skills -- account for 4% of the work force.


7>>
EXIT EXAMS ARE A TIME BOMB
\clip\99\05\exitexam.txt February 3, 1999, in the San Jose Mercury
News `Exit exams' already being put to the test Standards: Graduation
hurdle favored by Gov. Davis is a tricky undertaking. 
" Many states have run into controversy as parents and politicians
tried to come to grips with alarmingly high failure rates.  "
" By the time they're 10th-graders, the third quarter of the year is
devoted almost entirely to preparing for the TAAS, ``The first and
last semester, I get to do my regular stuff,'' Angelo said. ``But the
two other semesters are exclusively TAAS.  "


   BY MICHAEL BAZELEY Mercury News Staff Writer 


    For a glimpse into California's future, look no further than
Denise Denson.


 Denson, 18, is a student at Grady High School in Georgia, a state
where all high school students must pass a battery of tests before
receiving a diploma.


8>> This is all part of the "let's give kids challenging, really
challenging, unbelievably challenging material, and they'll rise to
the bar" conspiracy. Just like asking 8th graders to make a solar car
with no parts and no directions, or taking 1st graders to dissect
frogs on the internet, or expecting 5th graders to solve algebra and
problems without being taught algebra or ratio.


Most of the "new math" was throwing college level abstract
mathematics at tiny kids thinking that "deep understanding" would
help them memorize their times tables. Now "problem solving" frees
teachers from even having to teach about ratio or algebra.  It's like
giving you a course in automotive engineering because it will help
you know how to drive your car. That's nonsense because we drive
cars, we don't design them. Most jobs don't require solving math
problems either, just arithmetic, which is being ejected to make room
for "higher order thinking".


Higher standards? When we went to MIT, we had the same standards as
any other kid, but at the 100% level. Now they've got standards that
my 99th percentile kid can't hack on his own.  We need to bring back
the notion of a carefully evolved grade level.  We can evolve them
slowly up, but a "root and branch" revolution is just asking for
problems.


Please ask your teacher if your child is actually being taught the
words they're supposed to watch our for. I'll bet they aren't. It's
like asking kids "Who knows when Lincoln gave the Gettysburg 
address" and then wondering why nobody seems to know if they
didn't tell them first.


Send reply to:  	"Lieb Family" 
From:           	"Lieb Family" 
To:             	"ClearingHouse" 
Subject:        	[education-consumers] Physics Day at Amusement Park
Date sent:      	Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:17:40 -0500


> =====================================================================
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone else heard of Physics Day at an amusement park?  My 4th grader
> will be going in May and I had the science teacher send me information
> about topics which will be covered.  Based upon the papers I received, it
> appears to me that this may have been started by the amusement park itself
> as an alternative to the usual springtime field trip to the zoo.
> 
> These 4th graders are supposed to use certain words at least twice (one
> would surmise they should use the words correctly) while riding or watching
> rides.  Some of them are centripetal force, apparent weightlessness,
> inertia, equilibrium, kinetic energy, and potential energy.   When I had
> physics in high school and then general physics in college, these were some
> of the topics discussed during at least one portion of those courses.  
> 
> They also need to look at rides and determine exactly where on the ride

> different things occur such as vertical acceleration is less than 1g,
> kinetic energy is being converted into potential energy, and centripetal
> force is directed horizontal.  
> 
> I doubt that many students are going to fully understand what they are
> doing at the 4th grade level.  Since I am so concerned about the
> dumbing-down factor, I am not quite sure how to react to this.  I plan to
> attend as a chaperone to get a better feel for how much these kids really
> understand and maybe they will surprise me.  But I am interested if anyone
> else has had this type of program in their schools.
> 
> Thanks!
> Jean Lieb
> 
> =====================================================================
> 
>                                 EDUCATION CONSUMERS CLEARINGHOUSE
>             networking and information for parents and taxpayers on the internet 
> 
> Subscriptions & Archives:  http://education-consumers.com or 
> 
> You are currently subscribed to education-consumers as: arthurhu@halcyon.com
> TO UNSUBSCRIBE:  Send a blank email to leave-education-consumers-989462S@lists.dundee.net
> 
> ===================================================================== 
> 
> For less mail, click on the following link and choose
> 1) a daily digest, 
> 2) a daily list of subjects, or 
> 3) no mail (read postings on Web)
> 
> http://lists.dundee.net/scripts/lyris.pl?enter=education-consumers
> 
> For more help & info:   http://www.lyris.com/help  or   
> 




9>>
City Journal has an excellent issue on education, an article on 
voucher schools in Milwaukee is on the web, evidently they 
has examples of predominantly black schools that do was well
as suburban schools, at least by college rate if not test scores.


The UK article mourns the end of the two-track grammar school
system and competitive values that seem to leave boys
directionless, and way behind girls.


Ravitch seems to make a case for right-wing standards based
education. But as you all know, I'm not sure right wing standards
are any less destructive than progressive standards since either
one seems to flunk everybody.


I can pass the magazine on to anyone who wants to do the OCR
or read it.








 [Image]                Sol Stern   14  The Schools That Vouchers Built
                                        Now that Milwaukee and Cleveland have
                                        publicly-funded school voucher programs,
                                        we can see how vouchers work in
                                        practice.  The verdict, after visits to
                                        four voucher-supported schools: a
                                        straight A.
                      Janet Daley   26  Progressive Ed's War on Boys
                                        In Britain, progressive ed banished
                                        competition and testing as harmful and
                                        elitist.  Result: underachieving young
                                        males.
                    Diane Ravitch   33  Our School Problem and Its Solutions
                                        Education is more crucial than ever in
                                        today's knowledge-based economy, yet the
                                        public schools languish in mediocrity or
                                        failure.  We can fix them through
                                        competition and tougher standards.
               Heather Mac Donald   42  Foster Care's Underworld
                                        Foster care, with its traffic in abused
                                        and neglected children, has become
                                        integral to the inner-city economy.
                                        Advocates, who should be horrified, are
                                        eerily calm.






VOUCHER SCHOOLS IN MILWAUKEE PRODUCE GREAT RESULTS
\clip\99\05\vouchbil.txt
http://www.city-journal.org/html/9_1_a1.htm City Journal Winter 1998
The Schools That Vouchers Built by Sol Stern


Milwaukee
Four of the first five graduates of Believers in Christ have already
gone on to college


Milwaukee
With a student body that is 85 percent black and 10 percent Hispanic,
with 60 percent of the children from single-parent families and a
similar number below the poverty line, Messmer manages to get
academic results more characteristic of middle-class, suburban high
schools. Its graduation rate is over 95 percent, and almost all the
graduates go on to college


Milwaukee
Eighty-one percent of Bruce-Guadalupe's third-graders scored at or
above grade level on the state's standardized test last year--not
only a better outcome than most Milwaukee public schools


Hope schools
many of my third-graders couldn't spell their names, couldn't add
four plus three, couldn't even sit still,,,,the students scored, on
average, 5.4 percentile points higher at the end of the year on the
reading test and 15 percentile points higher on the math test.




10>>
I was steered to the Score Gap article again, and I just noticed that
here is in a package what I've been trying to say all along.  You 
can desegregate, raise incomes, and equalize funding until the 
cows come home, and it still won't matter unless you pay 
attention to academic peformance DIRECTLY. 


url: http://epn.org/prospect/40/40jencnf.html
Christopher Jencks and Meredith Phillips, "America's Next Achievement
Test: Closing the Black-White Test Score Gap," The American Prospect
no. 40 (September-October 1998): 44-53




In the 1960s, racial egalitarians routinely blamed the
     test score gap on the combined effects of black poverty, racial
     segregation, and inadequate funding for black schools. That
     analysis implied obvious solutions: raise black children's family
     income, desegregate their schools, and equalize spending on
     schools that remain racially segregated. All these steps still
     look useful, but none has made as much difference as optimists
     expected in the early 1960s.


        * The number of affluent black parents has grown substantially
          since the 1960s, but their children's test scores still lag
          far behind those of white children from equally affluent
          families. Income inequality between blacks and whites
          appears to play some role in the test score gap, but it is
          quite small.
        * Most southern schools desegregated in the early 1970s, and
          southern black nine-year-olds' reading scores seem to have
          risen as a result. Even today, black third graders in
          predominantly white schools read better than initially
          similar blacks who have attended predominantly black
          schools. But large racial differences in reading skills
          persist even in desegregated schools, and a school's racial
          mix has little effect on reading scores after sixth grade or
          on math scores at any age.
        * Despite glaring economic inequalities between a few rich
          suburbs and nearby central cities, the average black child
          and the average white child now live in school districts
          that spend almost exactly the same amount per pupil. Black
          and white schools also have the same average number of
          teachers per pupil, the same pay scales, and teachers with
          almost the same amount of formal education and teaching
          experience. The most important resource difference between
          black and white schools seems to be that both black and
          white teachers in black schools have lower test scores than
          their counterparts in white schools.


     For all these reasons, the number of people who think they know
     how to eliminate racial differences in test performance has
     shrunk steadily since the mid-1960s.
11>>


From:           	"Andrew J. Coulson" 
To:             	"arthur hu" ,
       	"ClearingHouse" 
Subject:        	American Economic Success in Light of its Educational Weaknesses
Date sent:      	Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:57:23 -0800


> Much has been said recently regarding U.S. economic success, and what that
> implies about its educational performance. Individuals such as Gerald Bracey
> assume that our economic success is due largely to the quality of our
> schools. This is not a self-evident proposition. In fact, it is an unlikely
> one at best, for two reasons:
> 
> 1) The performance of U.S. high-school seniors and young adults is low
> compared to
>      their peers in other countries on virtually every test in virtually
> every subject tested.
> 
> The TIMMS is not the only test that has shown U.S. high-school seniors and
> recent high-school graduates to be behind their peers in other nations.
> Virtually every international test I have come across has indicated the same
> thing. For example, the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and
> Development) found in 1995 that roughly one quarter of all 16 to 25 year old
> Americans score at the lowest of their five literacy levels. I am not a
> testing expert, and I have seen only a small number of questions from the
> IALS (International Adult Literacy Survey, the test in question), but they
> seemed entirely reasonable, particularly at the lowest levels. The lowest
> level questions generally had only one right answer that could be easily
> marked correct or incorrect. This was the second to worst showing of the
> seven participating nations. In fact, looking at changes in performance over
> time on both national and international tests (such as the NALS and YALS)
> there appears to have been a decline in literacy in this country over the
> past thirty years.
> 
> 2) There are many economic reasons for U.S. success in business, and for the
> failure of other nations in business, which are entirely unrelated to their
> respective educational systems.
> 
> Soviet communism did not fall chiefly because of its poor schools. In some
> respects, and at certain points, Russian government schools were superior to
> U.S. government schools. Most notably, during the fifties, they continued to
> use time-tested direct, systematic phonics instruction while the U.S. had
> already begun to marginalize such instruction in the early 1930s. According
> to most economists with whose work I am familiar, soviet communism fell
> chiefly due to the inherent failings of communism as an economic system:
> It's lack of a reliable incentive structure for innovation and efficiency,
> its inability to set prices in accordance with demand--and its corollary
> failure to produce the things people wanted in the appropriate quantities
> (remember the lines?), its stifling of individual initiative...
> 
> Similarly, there are many economic reasons for America's business successes.
> Most frequently noted is that the U.S. has one of the most flexible labor
> markets in the world, allowing human capital to be withdrawn from
> unprofitable businesses, and redirected to profitable ones more quickly and
> efficiently than in any other large industrialized nation. Though we have
> one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world, employees are constantly
> moving from fields in declining demand to fields in rising demand.
> Government intervention in business, which it has been on the ascendant for
> most of this century, is still more modest in this nation than in most
> others, allowing business leaders to act in accordance with their own best
> judgement rather than the judgement of bureaucrats. Taxes, too, have been on
> the rise throughout most of this century, but they remain below those of
> most other nations, allowing the most successful U.S. businesses to reinvest
> a greater portion of their earnings to boost future production...
> 
> Finally, though I have no personal knowledge of Boeing or GM, I worked at
> Microsoft as a systems software engineer for a number of years, and I did
> not see a decisive argument in favor of the virtues of U.S. k-12 schooling.
> There were a higher proportion of foreign nationals working at MSFT's
> Redmond headquarters than at most other area businesses, with the possible
> exception of ethnic restaurants. My colleagues consisted of as many Indians,
> Japanese, Poles, Italians, Canadians, Germans, and Englishmen, as of
> Americans. In fact, in the group in which I worked for most of my time at
> Microsoft, foreign nationals outnumbered U.S. citizens. Many of these
> individuals attended colleges in the United States, but others did not. Few
> if any attended this country's k-12 public schools. And perhaps most
> strikingly, the language skills of many of the immigrants outshone those of
> the home-grown Americans--often quite strikingly. While Msftees may write
> some excellent "C-language" code, they are not known for their English
> language code.
> 
> --Best,
>     Andrew
> 
> Andrew J. Coulson
> Editor, www.schoolchoices.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From:           	"Andrew J. Coulson" 
To:             	"arthur hu" ,
       	"ClearingHouse" 
Subject:        	American Economic Success in Light of its Educational Weaknesses
Date sent:      	Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:57:23 -0800


> The TIMMS is not the only test that has shown U.S. high-school seniors and
> recent high-school graduates to be behind their peers in other nations.
> Virtually every international test I have come across has indicated the same
> thing. For example, the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and
> Development) found in 1995 that roughly one quarter of all 16 to 25 year old
> Americans score at the lowest of their five literacy levels. I am not a
> testing expert, and I have seen only a small number of questions from the
> IALS (International Adult Literacy Survey, the test in question), but they
> seemed entirely reasonable, particularly at the lowest levels. The lowest
> level questions generally had only one right answer that could be easily
> marked correct or incorrect. This was the second to worst showing of the
> seven participating nations. In fact, looking at changes in performance over
> time on both national and international tests (such as the NALS and YALS)
> there appears to have been a decline in literacy in this country over the
> past thirty years.
> 


The adult survey was based on proficiency levels not unlike the 
absurd levels set by the NAEP. Top, bottom, all of the nations 
scored "poorly" on these tests. Such literacy skills include such
tasks as reading bus and train schedules and computing the price of  basket of goods, not making sense of "Gone with the Wind".


> exception of ethnic restaurants. My colleagues consisted of as many Indians,
> Japanese, Poles, Italians, Canadians, Germans, and Englishmen, as of
> Americans. In fact, in the group in which I worked for most of my time at
> Microsoft, foreign nationals outnumbered U.S. citizens. Many of these
> individuals attended colleges in the United States, but others did not. Few
> if any attended this country's k-12 public schools. And perhaps most
> strikingly, the language skills of many of the immigrants outshone those of
> the home-grown Americans--often quite strikingly. While Msftees may write
> some excellent "C-language" code, they are not known for their English
> language code.


Not a fair comparison. Chinese and Indians dominate high tech, yet
China and India have some of the lowest education levels in the developing world. You can't compare the top .5% of China and Taiwan and their immigrants with the 50% of Americans, and another reason why it's futile to say "why don't we train Americans
to do this stuff instead of importing all  these damn foreigners". You
can spend billions to try to turn inner city kids into programmers, or
not spend anything and let in the smartests kids in the world come
in for free. (heck, charge them for the priviledge)






> 
> --Best,
>     Andrew
> 
> Andrew J. Coulson
> Editor, www.schoolchoices.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




12>>
Subject: 
             Re: ESHB 1209 Education Deform Law
        Date: 
             Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:41:34 GMT
       From: 
             liberty@wolfenet.com (Mike Hihn)
 Organization: 
             Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C
 Newsgroups: 
             wash.politics, seattle.politics
  References: 
             1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5








On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:11:39 -0800, Arthur Hu 
wrote:


>Nope, OBE is based on the theory that all can be taught to hit the same
>level as long as you assess until you reach the goal.


Uhh, that does not in any way contradict what I said, which is still
here,  And it totally ignores your falsehood that performance-based
education is the same as outcome-based education (as shown in the
actual legislation, which you also ignored).


A few corrections -- the theory is that all students can be taught to
hit the same MINIMUM level, within the time allotted to the
coursework, and/or that you TEACH until you hit that goal, just as its
always been.


For example, although few high school kids can attain mastery in
Algebra II, within the two years typically allotted -- it has been
proven that almost every student can do so in four years.
This is valuable, because Algebra has been historically associated
with the College Prep track, but is increasingly required for many
less or non-academic Vocational course.


Plus, you have dissembled a bit here ---  what OBE is BASED on, does
not address what it IS.


Outcome Based Education is, as I said, a technique for creating
curriculum.  The technique simply means  starting from the measurable
learning objectives, THEN determining the best and most efficient way
to get there.  The process is identical to Management By Objectives --
both of which I have both used and taught.  


The "traditional" approach has been to buy the textbook first, then
figure out how to teach from it -- which is backwards.  If one never
looks at objectives, and what students can achieve, then the same
courses willl always be taught at the same grade levels, a strange
consequence that you seem to favor.


In other words, as the name implies, it is based on outcomes rather
than inputs.


For example -- vocational objectives make better examples
than academic ones -- traditional education tends to over-rely on
written tests,  In, say, auto mechanics, the tests would consist of
real behavior, such as one would perform on the job.  Mechanics are
not paid for writing things.


I say auto mechanics, because my former corporate employer
ran one of the few Job Corps programs in the 1960s which actually
succeeded.  Wgat we did was train certified auto mechanics in the
inner-city.  The course objectives assumed the students could not even
read.  We had a dropout rate of zero, and a job placement rate of
100%.  We were featured in one of those Readers Digest articles which
report the only place(s) a government program works.




>; From what we all should know about cognitive ability, this is an 
>impossibity,


Only if we assume that cognitive ability includes an inability to
absorb and apply proven data, or a refusal to learn what terms
actually mean.


> but we are politically restricted from facing the truth.


How so?
And how do your bizarre factual errors solve that?


> Any system that mandates that all students will reach the same goal
> is OBE.


Bullshit.  For as long as I can remember. education has demanded that
all students reach a certain minimum goal -- or they flunk and repeat
the course until they pass it.


OBE does no more than assure the exact same thing, either more
efiiciently, or more quickly, or for a greater number of students.


I call that progress.  You find it threatening.
Go figure.


>The traditional
>system recognizes the reality of a spectrum of ability and outcomes.


Irrelevant.  So does OBE.
That is critical to determining how much can be achieved -- as my
example of assuming the auto-mechanics students were functionally
illiterate.


> Do you honestly believe it is practical to require all to meet CIM requirements that
>60-80% of the current population fails? 


Eventually -- why not?  Technically -- too soon to tell.


Do YOU honestly believe -- as you keep stating here -- that we should 
rigidly maintain the status quo,  which means the most-costly  k-12
education in the industrialized world, producing the least-educated
students?


You have stated yourself that our 4th graders rank worldwide much
better than our 10th graders.  Think it through -- the longer our kids
stay in school, the worse they do. We don't educate kids -- we cripple
them. On your own stated evidence.  But you defend it -- and claim you
want to run for Superintendent of Public Instruction on this???


Our current system largely fails with all but the academically
talented -- which I happen to know includes you.  And, as you've also
noted, Orientals -- which also includes you -- seem to have the
highest "innate" learning ability.


Thus, while I want to level the playing field UPWARDS - you defend the
staus quo which favors yourself.


As a Libertraian, and as a parent, I find that morally offensive.


-Mike Hihn




>Mike Hihn wrote:
>








  Uhh, that does not in any way contradict what I said, which is still
  here,  And it totally ignores your falsehood that performance-based
  education is the same as outcome-based education (as shown in the
  actual legislation, which you also ignored).


  A few corrections -- the theory is that all students can be taught to
  hit the same MINIMUM level, within the time allotted to the
  coursework, and/or that you TEACH until you hit that goal, just as its
  always been.


  For example, although few high school kids can attain mastery in
  Algebra II, within the two years typically allotted -- it has been
  proven that almost every student can do so in four years.
  This is valuable, because Algebra has been historically associated
  with the College Prep track, but is increasingly required for many
  less or non-academic Vocational course.




Nope, most states like California send no more than 50% of kids through algebra, even 
the ones that require all 8th or 9th graders to take it don't result in more than 50% 
passing. Problem is their basic mathematics and fractions isn't good enough. Any concept 
of  "keep outcome constant, vary the time" is OBE. Traditional is keep time constant, vary 
the level of performance. By the time the slow pokes have caught up, the leaders are even 
farther ahead anyways, so OBE still does not lead to equal outcomes. 








  Plus, you have dissembled a bit here ---  what OBE is BASED on, does
  not address what it IS.


  Outcome Based Education is, as I said, a technique for creating
  curriculum.  The technique simply means  starting from the measurable
  learning objectives, THEN determining the best and most efficient way
  to get there.  The process is identical to Management By Objectives --
  both of which I have both used and taught.




OBE does not create a curriculum, only a means for assessing. What generally happens is 
that progressives use OBE as an excuse to put in ridculous fuzzy math, integrated 
thematic curriculum, and every other hokey idea in the book.




  The "traditional" approach has been to buy the textbook first, then
  figure out how to teach from it -- which is backwards.  If one never
  looks at objectives, and what students can achieve, then the same
  courses willl always be taught at the same grade levels, a strange
  consequence that you seem to favor.


  In other words, as the name implies, it is based on outcomes rather
  than inputs.




The traditional system is the one that Western civilization (and a few other civilizations 
such as China and Japan) are based on, and have gotten man to the moon and the internet 
age. God know where the reform system will get us, so far there is a lot of evidence that it 
is already a disaster, but you'd never know it from the OSPI propoganda machine.






  For example -- vocational objectives make better examples
  than academic ones -- traditional education tends to over-rely on
  written tests,  In, say, auto mechanics, the tests would consist of
  real behavior, such as one would perform on the job.  Mechanics are
  not paid for writing things.


  I say auto mechanics, because my former corporate employer
  ran one of the few Job Corps programs in the 1960s which actually
  succeeded.  Wgat we did was train certified auto mechanics in the
  inner-city.  The course objectives assumed the students could not even
  read.  We had a dropout rate of zero, and a job placement rate of
  100%.  We were featured in one of those Readers Digest articles which
  report the only place(s) a government program works.




It may well work in specific trades, but NOT in general academics. Another guy said 
OBE works well for pilot training, but minimal standards are far better defined for flying 
than academics where the sky is the limit




  Only if we assume that cognitive ability includes an inability to
  absorb and apply proven data, or a refusal to learn what terms
  actually mean.


Differnences in cognitive ability means that the best will always do better than the worst, 
and you will always have some people who are wealthier than others no matter how fair 
you want to be. As a libertarian, you must know this.




  > Any system that mandates that all students will reach the same goal
  > is OBE.


  Bullshit.  For as long as I can remember. education has demanded that
  all students reach a certain minimum goal -- or they flunk and repeat
  the course until they pass it.




Outcome basd, Performance based, Standards based, they are all evolutions of the same 
thing. And they are all based on destrucive progressive education models.








  OBE does no more than assure the exact same thing, either more
  efiiciently, or more quickly, or for a greater number of students.


  I call that progress.  You find it threatening.
  Go figure.


OBE in 1209 is the state grabbing power over local schools. This should scare you too. 
It's "succeed or else"






  >The traditional
  >system recognizes the reality of a spectrum of ability and outcomes.


  Irrelevant.  So does OBE.




WASL is based on only one "standard" that all students are expected to meet. Anything 
less is not acceptable, very few are allowed to be "above" the standard. Norm referenced 
grading puts everyone in rank order, leaving people to make their own conclusions as to 
"how good is good enough". One standard for all is a standard that is useless for all. That 
is the whole idea of  the Certificate of Mastery, which also must die.








  That is critical to determining how much can be achieved -- as my
  example of assuming the auto-mechanics students were functionally
  illiterate.




And we're talking about raising all kids to the "highest levels" and as Marc Tucker 
promised to officials in Seattle in 1991, we will eliminate all tracking, gifted and remedial 
tracks?






  > Do you honestly believe it is practical to require all to meet CIM requirements that
  >60-80% of the current population fails?


  Eventually -- why not?  Technically -- too soon to tell.


Boy you really do believe this crap. The goal is for all schools to have 80% passing. The 
best 4th grade in the state was Somerset in Bellevue, and they were only 70%. So you 
think that African American academy, and every other bottom of the barrel school in the 
state will meet the state goals "eventually?" That means they'll have to do better than 
Somerset. In ten years, we will have totally erased the gap between urban blacks and 
upper class Chinese? I don't think so. All because of a new test?  Am I insane to believe 
that only a total fool would fall for such a promise?








  Do YOU honestly believe -- as you keep stating here -- that we should
  rigidly maintain the status quo,  which means the most-costly  k-12
  education in the industrialized world, producing the least-educated
  students?




If reform means progressive education, I'd rather keep the status quo, thank you. The 
communists took bad systems in Russia and China where the poor starved and turned 
them into even worse system  where everybody starved. Ed reform will transform systems 
where only the poor could not read or compute into system where even the affluent will 
not be able to read or compute, and I have horror stories on file to prove this has already 
happened in districts across the nation. 1209 and WASL will insure that all must conform 
to "reform".




  You have stated yourself that our 4th graders rank worldwide much
  better than our 10th graders.  Think it through -- the longer our kids
  stay in school, the worse they do. We don't educate kids -- we cripple
  them. On your own stated evidence.  But you defend it -- and claim you
  want to run for Superintendent of Public Instruction on this???




Actually the 10th grade TIMSS has serious problems. And the fact is that it's college that 
matters at Intel Microsoft, IBM and Boeing. and guess which nation dominates the world 
in nearly every market?? It's not Germany or Japan, it's the US.




  Our current system largely fails with all but the academically
  talented -- which I happen to know includes you.  And, as you've also
  noted, Orientals -- which also includes you -- seem to have the
  highest "innate" learning ability.




Alfie Kohn complains that it's always the elite parents who get in the way of reform. 
Asians are just one subgroup. But when they throw stuff at my 99th percentile kid and he 
can't even hack it, I do have reason to be concerned.






  Thus, while I want to level the playing field UPWARDS - you defend the
  staus quo which favors yourself.




Better counterrevolutinary than a revolutionary. I'm the ant trying to fight a multibillion 
dollar education industry. You are the one supporting big education and their conspiracy 
to "restructure" education and the entire labor market into a seamless cradel-to-grave 
labor development system that the socialists would envy. You've heard of school to work, 
and Marc Tuckers blueprint on which 1209 is based, right?


I'm amazed that a libertarian would back a movement with such goals.








  As a Libertraian, and as a parent, I find that morally offensive.


  -Mike Hihn


  >Mike Hihn wrote:
  >
  >> On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:19:29 GMT, arthurhu@halcyon.com wrote:
  >>
  >> >1209 mandates performance based education. According to their
  >> >own flyers, performance based education is simply a name for
  >> >outcome based education. Any system which assumes that by
  >> >merely setting a high standard, and forcing all students to
  >> >meet that standard, that all will rise to meet that standard
  >> >IS outcome based education.
  >>
  >> Bzzzt -- wrong again, Arthur.
  >>
  >> One more time (sigh), OBE is a method for designing curriculum, which
  >> is what happens BEFORE the material is taught.
  >>
  >> Testing occurs AFTER the material is taught.  The two may both be
  >> used, but that does not imply equivalence  -- just as a teacher might
  >> spank a student and teach history on the same day.
  >>
  >> It would be silly to then claim that spanking is the same as teaching
  >> history.  But that is the equivalent of what you have asserted here.
  >>
  >> Mike Hihn
  >> Libertarian Party of WA -- http://lpws.org
  >> "World's Smallest Political Quiz" -- http://www.self-gov.org/
  >
  >


  Mike Hihn
  Libertarian Party of WA -- http://lpws.org
  "World's Smallest Political Quiz" -- http://www.self-gov.org/


  
leontodd@execpc.com/CC
arthurhu@halcyon.com,
education-consumers@ripple.dundee.net
Re: [education-consumers] Jenks thumbs down on liberal solution to bla


... better classmates make better minority students..


Remarkably it seems a deliberate blindness that no one has dupolicated
my finding that even when you put blacks in the best predomonantly white/
asian schools like bellevue wa, fairfax co va,cupertino, they do poorer
than their classmates and almost always no better than average in a 60-80th
percentile school. No contradictory data has ever been presented, such
comprusins are simply never made, and therefore it must be a
deliberate ommision.


Yet Asians in the worst urban districts range from
only slightly worse to as good as better suburbs. This pattern holds for
every city I have seen data for, if you check your neighborhood, you
will find the same. The only sucess stories are predominantly minority

where everyome is force to adopt an academic ethic


im a fencepost sitter in that i believe that genes do influence
ability and culture, but turn the clock back and were all cavemen
culture may be the key to narrowing if not eliminating differences


















On 1999-02-05 leontodd@execpc.com said:
   >cc: ClearingHouse 
   >Inequality : A Reassessment of the Effect of Family and Schooling in
   >America
   >by Christopher Jencks 1972
   >Leon Todd (leontodd@execpc.com from Milwaukee, WI usa , October 24,
Arthur Hu "Fairness in Diversity" Kirkland WA 
http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu/


Net-Tamer V 1.11P - Registered
leontodd@execpc.com/CC
arthurhu@halcyon.com,
education-consumers@ripple.dundee.net
Re: [education-consumers] Bell Curve meaning


What grabbed everyone about the bell curve was the notion that anybody
could believe that one race is genetically less capable than  another.
In fact, the official position of the authors is that there isn't
enough evidence to conclude this. But there is a lot of evidence that
iq inferority contributes as much to effective inferority as not havving
any economic or political power. In fact, any one who believes some
races are "disadvantaged" effectively also belirves in a socially
constructed racial inferoity. If we dont make a dent in iq, the
other problems wont be waved away with someting as simple as
race quotas and reverse discrimination.


Jenks thumbs down on liberal solution to bla




On 1999-02-05 leontodd@execpc.com said:
   >cc: ClearingHouse 
   >James Coleman thought he had the answer to the gap between black
   >and white children back in 1967: family culture.  Velez appears to
   >agree with Coleman.  Charles Murray and the Bradley Foundation
   >thought they had the answer a few short years ago, blacks are
   >genetically more stupid than whites.  Black afrocentric cults think
   >they have the answer: miseducation and self esteem.  School Board
Arthur Hu "Fairness in Diversity" Kirkland WA 
http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu/


Net-Tamer V 1.11P - Registered
Rovarose@aol.com/CC
education-consumers@ripple.dundee.net
Re: [education-consumers]  You have to generate a sense of crisis


Exactly the point. If you set standards as basic as that, thats probaly
ok. Raising stanards so that 4th graders are expected to do 9th
grade algebra and ratio problems is NOT a crisis. If we spend half a
year on these danged tests which dont ask where the us is, who will
teach them?


Its rote learning anyways, they can always ask the internet to find it
for them, right?




On 1999-02-05 Rovarose@aol.com said:
   >====================================================================
   >=
   >In a message dated 99-02-05 02:08:35 EST, you write:
   ><< That's why conservatives and high performance people shouldn't
   >just pile on the "we stink" campaign when it comes to seeking
   >and promoting low test scores to prove we need reform.>>

   >Arthur,
   >A million-dollar national survey paid for by the National
   >Geographic Society in 1989 showed that over 50% of US citizens ages
   >18-26 cannot locate the USA on a world map.
   >Doesn't that stink?   (I think objective conservatives and
   >non-conservatives should agree that it does).
   >Bob
   >====================================================================
   >=
   >EDUCATION CONSUMERS CLEARINGHOUSE
   >networking and information for parents and taxpayers on the internet
   >Subscriptions & Archives:  http://education-consumers.com or
   >
   >You are currently subscribed to education-consumers as:
   >arthurhu@halcyon.com TO UNSUBSCRIBE:  Send a blank email to
   >leave-education-consumers-989462S@lists.dundee.net
   >====================================================================
   >=
   >For less mail, click on the following link and choose
   >1) a daily digest,
   >2) a daily list of subjects, or
   >3) no mail (read postings on Web)
   >http://lists.dundee.net/scripts/lyris.pl?enter=education-consumers
   >For more help & info:   http://www.lyris.com/help  or
   >


Arthur Hu "Fairness in Diversity" Kirkland WA 
http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu/


Net-Tamer V 1.11P - Registered




+OK 4272 octets
Received: from smtp06.nwnexus.com (smtp06.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.45])
	by mail1.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA00533
	for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:55:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ripple.dundee.net (ripple.dundee.net [206.249.104.12])
	by smtp06.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA21379
	for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:55:38 -0800 (PST)
From: "Andrew J. Coulson" 
To: "ClearingHouse" 
Subject: [education-consumers] Re: American Economic Success in Light of its Educational Weaknesses
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:54:53 -0800
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Message-ID: 
Reply-To: "Andrew J. Coulson" 
Precedence: bulk
Status:   


=====================================================================




[This message was originally sent yesterday, but bounced. Here is a retry]


Arthur Hu wrote,


"The adult survey was based on proficiency levels not unlike the
absurd levels set by the NAEP. Top, bottom, all of the nations
scored "poorly" on these tests. Such literacy skills include such
tasks as reading bus and train schedules and computing the price
of  basket of goods, not making sense of "Gone with the Wind"."


I don't want to seem contrary, but I don't agree that all nations could be
said to have done "poorly" (or poorly) on the IALS. On the Prose scale (one
of the three different scales on which performance was measured) only 3.8%
of Swedish 16 to 25 year-olds scored at the lowest level (Level 1) (whereas
23.5% of Americans did). On the same Prose scale, 39.7 % of young Swedes
scored at the top two levels (Levels 4 and 5) (whereas only 12.8 % of U.S.
16 to 25 year-olds did). I would call the Swedish performance good. Several
other countries, such as the Netherlands, did reasonably well also.


As to your second statement, I'm not sure what point you are making. If you
mean to say that comprehension of literary fiction was not tested, I think
you are right. However, I have never seen it argued that most jobs require
mastery of this form of writing, and we are discussing the role of education
as it relates to U.S. business success. The samples of expository prose used
in the Prose scale (magazine and newspaper articles, product labels, simple
instruction manuals, etc.) seem to me to me more relevant measures of
working literacy. And, even on the most trivial such texts, many U.S. young
people demonstrated little or no understanding.


Arthur adds,


"[Andrew's reference to Microsoft] is not a fair comparison. Chinese and
Indians
dominate high tech, yet China and India have some of the lowest
education levels in the developing world...."


The comparison wasn't mine, it was Bracey's and, I thought, yours. I was
simply pointing out that the success of Microsoft (the only one of the
companies mentioned of which I have personal knowledge) provides no basis
for imputing the success of U.S. public schooling. Since you apparently
consider the comparison unfair, I'm happy to drop it. I don't believe
anecdotes make powerful arguments anyway.


--Andrew


Andrew J. Coulson
Editor, www.schoolchoices.org










=====================================================================


                                EDUCATION CONSUMERS CLEARINGHOUSE
            networking and information for parents and taxpayers on the internet 


Subscriptions & Archives:  http://education-consumers.com or 


You are currently subscribed to education-consumers as: arthurhu@halcyon.com
TO UNSUBSCRIBE:  Send a blank email to leave-education-consumers-989462S@lists.dundee.net


===================================================================== 


For less mail, click on the following link and choose

1) a daily digest, 
2) a daily list of subjects, or 
3) no mail (read postings on Web)


http://lists.dundee.net/scripts/lyris.pl?enter=education-consumers


For more help & info:   http://www.lyris.com/help  or   


.







+OK 4036 octets
Received: from smtp06.nwnexus.com (smtp06.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.45])
	by mail1.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12143
	for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:43:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ripple.dundee.net (ripple.dundee.net [206.249.104.12])
	by smtp06.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA22368
	for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:43:40 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: 
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 01:38:41 -0500
To: "ClearingHouse" 
From: "George K. Cunningham" 
Subject: [education-consumers] Liberal/conservative state assessments
Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Reply-To: "George K. Cunningham" 
Precedence: bulk
Status:   


=====================================================================




In the latest Education Weekly (vol 23, Number 21, Feb 3, back page)  is an
article by Robert  Evans titled "The Great Accountability Fallacy."  It is
accessible at www.edweek.org.  In this commentary The author blames
conservatives for the widespread adoption of such tests stating:


"To testing proponents, mostly conservatives, who see public schools as
inadequate and irresponsible, accountability is a straightforward
proposition:.."


I received a  post from  Ken Goodman (one of the founders of whole
language) on another listserve I am on, which includes many liberal
educators,  regarding the guerrilla action of some teachers who published
the content of one of the accountability tests being used in the Chicago
schools and the heat they are taking.  They were sued for a million dollars
and police searched the houses of the some of the teachers involved.  The
teachers also expect to be fired.  This post is pretty long, but I will
forward it separately to anyone interested.  The essence of the post is the
need for liberal opposition to this sort of educational reform.


On the education consumers list serve, which is more conservatives, state
accountability programs are attacked and sometimes blamed on liberal
educators.  On liberal education listserves they have the same complaints,
but blame these programs  on conservtives.  At the state level it varies.
In Kentucky the situation is unambiguous.  Support for KIRIS and its
replacement CATS comes from the most liberal educators in the state.
Opposition comes from conservatives.   What about the other states?  Every
state by Iowa either has or is planning statewide accountability systems. 


The point I have been trying to make for awhile is that the promotion of
statewide accountability is neither a conservative or liberal issue.   It
is often opposed by both.  Then why is almost every state doing it?  School
to work is a movement that is not political in the ways we usually think of
it and these programs are closely tied to their goals.   A lot of it is
about money too.  Accountability is a multi billion dollar business and the
desire to get rich is not partisan.   






=====================================================================


                                EDUCATION CONSUMERS CLEARINGHOUSE
            networking and information for parents and taxpayers on the internet 


Subscriptions & Archives:  http://education-consumers.com or 


You are currently subscribed to education-consumers as: arthurhu@halcyon.com

TO UNSUBSCRIBE:  Send a blank email to leave-education-consumers-989462S@lists.dundee.net


===================================================================== 


For less mail, click on the following link and choose
1) a daily digest, 
2) a daily list of subjects, or 
3) no mail (read postings on Web)


http://lists.dundee.net/scripts/lyris.pl?enter=education-consumers


For more help & info:   http://www.lyris.com/help  or   


.




13>>
Look at these statments again
-----
On the 1994 NAEP, 4% of the Texas fourth graders who were tested were at or
 above advanced, 22% were at or above proficient, 54% were at or above
 basic, and 46% were below basic. 


No wonder we high
 school English teachers are constantly frustrated when only 4% of our
 students are able to do the very things that all high school students
 should be able to do.   


----------------------------


This is why I have such a huge problem with criterion reference
tests. Statistially, the "expected" value is what you are most likely
to get if you select any one individual at random. That's why the
50th percentile level is "grade level", with half above, and half
below. On the NAEP scale, 50th percentile is just above the portion
that scored in the "knows nothing" category, yet that's also the
statistical definition of grade level.


I don't care how stupid the kids in your state or my state are, the
top 5% is normally what gets called "gifted", and that's what you
will find in your wealthiest suburbs and private schools, and they
are the kids you find in the Ivy leagues and top state universities
like UC Berkeley. I don't think it's reasonable to expect all
children, or even the top 50% of kids to perform at such a level. I
went to school in 1976 in a 50th percentile school, and I don't
recall too many kids beside myself who could perform at such levels
either.


Does anybody have any evidence that the general HS population was
ever capable of such levels of performance, except in the days when
only the top 25 graduated from high school and only 10% went to
college, about 100 years ago?


(Bracey also writes about being careful about the "good old days")




that are so far out of line with reasonable expectations. 


14>>
From:           	"Dave and Pam" 
To:             	"Arthur Hu" 
Subject:        	Letter to the Editor
Date sent:      	Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:13:36 -0800


Arthur,


Excellent letter.


Dave Stevens

University of Washington School of Law, Class of 1999
President, UW Republican Law Students Association, 1998-1999
President, UW Federalist Society, 1997-1998












15>>
Date sent:      	Mon, 08 Feb 1999 07:10:52 -0500
To:             	"ClearingHouse" 
From:           	"J. E. Stone" 
Subject:        	[education-consumers] Are supporters of standards and accountability trying to  discredit public education?
Send reply to:  	"J. E. Stone" 


=====================================================================




At 12:01 PM 2/6/99 -0600, you wrote:
>=====================================================================
>
>
>The only reason these exit proficiency exams are there, and the only
>reason they keep raising the bar and insisting on rigorous (ever look of
>the word rigorous?) standards, is to discredit public education





Leon is probably right about SOME supporters of the
standards/accountability movement wanting to discredit the public schools.
I hear the claim made that "choice" advocates want to discredit public
schools so that religious groups and entrepreneurs can tap public funding,
however, most of this talk seems to come from people who oppose
accountability--period.  I also suspect that some supporters of the
current--criterion referenced approach to accountability--are hoping that
there will be a public backlash against standards caused by excessive
failure rates and that the effort to set standards and maintain
accountability of any kind will lose public support.


There is another group who want standards & accountability, however--a
group of which I consider my self a part.  This is the group that sees the
informal evidence that public schools are not doing a good job and who
would like to have solid, credible evidence of school effectiveness for
each school, i.e., evidence so clear that parents and other interested
parties would be able to see the results for themselves.  I want evidence
that would enable interested consumers to see past all the obfuscations
and deceptions that are being put forward by local schools systems and by
academics such as David Berliner, Bruce Biddle (The Manufactured Crisis),
Gerald Bracey (The annual Phi Delta Kappan Bracey Report), and others.  I
want evidence so convincing that educators would not be able to get away
with claims that dissatisfied parents and taxpayers are seriously
misinformed, driven by a religious or ideological agenda, or just plain
nuts. 


The standards that Arthur Hu and others are criticizing are ones that
compare schools on the basis of the percentage of students who reach or
exceed a given criterion.  There are real problems with such standards.
Apart from any other considerations, there is no good way to set a
criterion--a point Professor Cunningham has made on more than one
occasion.
 Any given level will be too high for some schools and too low for others.
 Schools with above average numbers of disadvantaged students will look
 bad
by such standards.  Their virtue, however, is that they are clear and
relatively easy for the average person to understand.  


I acknowledge the problems associated with criterion referenced standards
but I think we should keep in mind that we as consumers were worse off
when there was no accountability.  Bear in mind that the very idea that
public schools should be accountable is relatively novel.  Also, notice
that some of the critics are selectively critical.  They find big problems
with high stakes objective tests but have nothing to say about
accountability systems that poorly inform the public--the failed KIRIS
assessment system in KY as a prime example.  


I would prefer that schools be judged by examining value-added gains in
student achievement, but I would rather have the current crop of
criterion-referenced reports than go back to the arrangement where annual
reports were an exercise in public relations.  


Unlike the critics of high stakes accountability who are looking at the
situation from the standpoint of the education community, I do not expect
that we will ever have standards and accountability that will satisfy all
of their concerns.  Rather, my hope is that we can find a system that
tells consumers what they want to know.  




In short, criterion referenced accountability isn't perfect but it is a
start and from where I sit it is better than nothing.


J. E. Stone, Ed.D.
Education Consumers ClearingHouse
P.O. Box 4411
Johnson City, TN 37602
phone & fax 423-282-6832
e-mail professor@education-consumers.com




http://education-consumers.com


























=====================================================================


                                EDUCATION CONSUMERS CLEARINGHOUSE
            networking and information for parents and taxpayers on the
            internet 


Subscriptions & Archives:  http://education-consumers.com or



You are currently subscribed to education-consumers as:
arthurhu@halcyon.com TO UNSUBSCRIBE:  Send a blank email to
leave-education-consumers-989462S@lists.dundee.net


===================================================================== 


For less mail, click on the following link and choose
1) a daily digest, 
2) a daily list of subjects, or 
3) no mail (read postings on Web)


http://lists.dundee.net/scripts/lyris.pl?enter=education-consumers


For more help & info:   http://www.lyris.com/help  or
  




17>>
Subject: 
             Re: ESHB 1209 Education Deform Law
        Date: 
             Sat, 06 Feb 1999 02:38:22 GMT
       From: 
             liberty@wolfenet.com (Mike Hihn)
 Organization: 
             Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C
 Newsgroups: 
             wash.politics, seattle.politics
  References: 
             1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7








On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 16:31:32 -0800, Arthur Hu 
wrote:




Hihn:
>> Uhh, that does not in any way contradict what I said, which is still
>> here,  And it totally ignores your falsehood that performance-based
>> education is the same as outcome-based education (as shown in the
>> actual legislation, which you also ignored).
>>
>> A few corrections -- the theory is that all students can be taught to
>> hit the same MINIMUM level, within the time allotted to the
>> coursework, and/or that you TEACH until you hit that goal, just as its
>> always been.
>>
>> For example, although few high school kids can attain mastery in
>> Algebra II, within the two years typically allotted -- it has been
>> proven that almost every student can do so in four years.
>> This is valuable, because Algebra has been historically associated
>> with the College Prep track, but is increasingly required for many
>> less or non-academic Vocational course.
>>


>Nope, most states like California send no more than 50% of kids through algebra, even the
>ones that require all 8th or 9th graders to take it don't result in more than 50% passing.


Pay attention, Arthur.  I said it had been proven -- not that it was
the norm.  Education Luddites in the education profession -- like
yourself -- prefer the elitism of the status quo.


It's called Tech Prep.


>Problem is their basic mathematics and fractions isn't good enough. Any concept of  "keep
>outcome constant, vary the time" is OBE. 


Wrong again, Arthur.
OBE is a process for CREATING curriculum.  


I'm getting tired of repeating this every tew days, Arthur, while you
blissfully keep repating the same nonsense over and over.  The notion
of flunking a kid and (perhaps) making him take the course over has
been the normsince the 19th century -- and it means "keep the outcome
constant, vary the time."


I'll give you a clue, pal.  Everyone reading this newsgroup knows
that.  So who in hell are you trying to con? 


>Traditional is keep time constant, vary the level
>of performance.





> OBE still does not lead to equal outcomes.


(chcukle)  Nobody ever said it would -- except you.




>> Plus, you have dissembled a bit here ---  what OBE is BASED on, does
>> not address what it IS.
>>
>> Outcome Based Education is, as I said, a technique for creating
>> curriculum.  The technique simply means  starting from the measurable
>> learning objectives, THEN determining the best and most efficient way
>> to get there.  The process is identical to Management By Objectives --
>> both of which I have both used and taught.
>>
>
>OBE does not create a curriculum, 


Pay attention,Arthur,  or do we have an illiterate MIT grad here?
OBE does not create curriculum.  It is a TECHNIQUE for creating
curriculum,


>only a means for assessing. 


Bzzzt. wrong.  OBE starts by defining what the assessment should be --
which means selecting from among ALL AVAILABLE means for assessing.


>What generally happens is
>that progressives use OBE as an excuse to put in ridculous fuzzy math, integrated thematic
>curriculum, and every other hokey idea in the book.


You have become the unwittting tool of the teachers unions.
And you have it all backwards.


The reason so many educators want fuzzy standards is because they know
they will be held accountable to meeting those standards.


And -- as most informed people know -- fuzzy math can be taught with
or without OBE,  Thus - once again -- you confuse coincidence with
cause and effect.




>> Only if we assume that cognitive ability includes an inability to
>> absorb and apply proven data, or a refusal to learn what terms
>> actually mean.
>
>Differnences in cognitive ability 


Pay attention, Arthur.  I wasn't talking about differences in
cognitive ability.


>> > Any system that mandates that all students will reach the same goal
>> > is OBE.
>>
>> Bullshit.  For as long as I can remember. education has demanded that
>> all students reach a certain minimum goal -- or they flunk and repeat
>> the course until they pass it.
>
>Outcome basd, Performance based, Standards based, they are all evolutions of the same
>thing. And they are all based on destrucive progressive education models.


Non-responsive, Arthur.


>> >The traditional
>> >system recognizes the reality of a spectrum of ability and outcomes.
>>

>> Irrelevant.  So does OBE.
>
>WASL is based on only one "standard" that all students are expected to meet.


(yawn) You again pretending there's no such thing as failing a course?


> Anything less
>is not acceptable, very few are allowed to be "above" the standard. 


What's the penalty for over-performance?  


>Norm referenced
>grading puts everyone in rank order, leaving people to make their own conclusions as to
>"how good is good enough". 


 You never saw grade-point rankings????
They go back to the 1950s, and that's just my personal observation.


>> > Do you honestly believe it is practical to require all to meet CIM requirements that
>> >60-80% of the current population fails?
>>
>> Eventually -- why not?  Technically -- too soon to tell.
>
>Boy you really do believe this crap. 


I've done it myself -- in the 1960s, and then spent nearly 40 years
watching teachers unions oppose it.


Once again -- you ignore my question and just continue babbling what
appears to be a monolog.


>The goal is for all schools to have 80% passing. The
>best 4th grade in the state was Somerset in Bellevue, and they were only 70%. 


Make up your mind, Arthur -- you keep flitting around between everyone
being expected to do the same thing, and only 80% passing.


>So you think
>that African American academy, and every other bottom of the barrel school in the state
>will meet the state goals "eventually?" 


Pay attention, Arthur.  That was a question.


>That means they'll have to do better than Somerset. In ten years,


Right, Arthur.  Let's hold dem darkies down.
I've commented before on your racist premises.


> we will have totally erased the gap between urban blacks and upper
>class Chinese?


Why do you always compare blacks with orientals, Mr. Hu?


> I don't think so. All because of a new test?  Am I insane to believe that
>only a total fool would fall for such a promise?


Only a fool would claim that was even close to the promise.


>> Do YOU honestly believe -- as you keep stating here -- that we should
>> rigidly maintain the status quo,  which means the most-costly  k-12
>> education in the industrialized world, producing the least-educated
>> students?
>>
>If reform means progressive education, I'd rather keep the status quo, thank you.


You have a real problem with direct questions.


>> You have stated yourself that our 4th graders rank worldwide much
>> better than our 10th graders.  Think it through -- the longer our kids
>> stay in school, the worse they do. We don't educate kids -- we cripple
>> them. On your own stated evidence.  But you defend it -- and claim you
>> want to run for Superintendent of Public Instruction on this???
>>
>
>Actually the 10th grade TIMSS has serious problems.


You have a real problem with direct questions.


>> Our current system largely fails with all but the academically
>> talented -- which I happen to know includes you.  And, as you've also
>> noted, Orientals -- which also includes you -- seem to have the
>> highest "innate" learning ability.
>>
>> Thus, while I want to level the playing field UPWARDS - you defend the
>> staus quo which favors yourself.
>
>Better counterrevolutinary than a revolutionary.


Like the original Luddites?


> I'm the ant trying to fight a multibillion dollar education industry. 


They own you lock, stock and barrel.  You're carrying their water for
them, as I've shown above and previously..


You are the one supporting big education and their
>conspiracy to "restructure" education and the entire labor market into a seamless
>cradle-to-grave labor development system that the socialists would envy. 


Hmmm, do you have any evidence for THAT?


>I'm amazed that a libertarian would back a movement with such goals. 


Learn to THINK, Arthur.  I haven't backed the "movement" at all - not
once -- not by so much as a smidgeon


I've simply stated -- and shown -- that you have no idea what you're
taking about.  If you believe, arrogantly, that you are the only
alternative, then you might easily be confused about what I'm
defending here.


But that's your problem, not mine.


>This is going to be
>the bigggest libertairian issue since I200,


Libertarians are not known to follow that wackiest right on much of
anything.  We have our conspiracy nuts, like any political party.






Mike Hihn
Libertarian Party of WA -- http://lpws.org
"World's Smallest Political Quiz" -- http://www.self-gov.org/




So Hihn supports Terry Bergeson and her friends who throw 7th and 10th 
grade problems at 4th graders, and even likes the idea.


He agrees with with the promise that "all will suceed" and that every school
will have 80% passing at every income and status level even though the
highest status Somerset in Bellevue did not pass, and that this implicitly means
that all race and income difference we currently see will be erased when
places like African american academy get a 80% pass rate.


Go ahead, vote for Bergeson in 2000. 


I stand for people who are willing to ask questions and not be sheep when it comes
to reform, which is simply affirmative action thinking applied to educational
performance classes.










You (and everyone else reading this) need to read up on school to work, and 
where it came from, and Marc Tucker's master plan on which it is based. The
government will control curriculum and skill standards, and who will and will
not be able to get jobs based on who passes the hoops that Tucker places
on the American people. It really is a scary picture, and yes, the right wing
loonnies are the first to spot the danger, but that does not mean it is real. The
WASL is the FIRST step in the plan which sold by Marc Tucker. Please people,
do some research. 


I can't believe libertarians of all people support such a centralized approach
to ed reform that makes affirmative action look like baby stuff.










  You are the one supporting big education and their
  >conspiracy to "restructure" education and the entire labor market into a seamless
  >cradle-to-grave labor development system that the socialists would envy.


  Hmmm, do you have any evidence for THAT?


  >I'm amazed that a libertarian would back a movement with such goals.


  Learn to THINK, Arthur.  I haven't backed the "movement" at all - not
  once -- not by so much as a smidgeon


  I've simply stated -- and shown -- that you have no idea what you're
  taking about.  If you believe, arrogantly, that you are the only
  alternative, then you might easily be confused about what I'm
  defending here.




  




17>>
Interesting, I'm not sure if the guys that are going up against are as much pro-reform as 
they are anti-Arthur's attacks on reform. Do people really care about


- "Authentic assessment"
- Outcome/Performance/Standard based education
- Certificate of Mastery
- Higher Standards
- School To Work


- 7th and 10th grade questions on 4th grade tests
- Superintendent and CSL that doesn't know the difference in grade level content
- 80% failure rates on required tests

- 95% failure rates for minorities on same tests
- Parental revolt over reform math
- Parental revolt over whole language
- Parental revolt over required 1 day a week for school to work
- Promise that all will pass these tests in 5-10 yrs
- complete overhaul of education paradigms
- Constructivism
- Learner / Student / Discovery based education
- Developmentally Appropirate Practices
- Research based reform with no evidence of effacicy
- Whole Lanagage
- NCTM math standards
- Integrated / Applications math
- State control of curriculum standards / EALR


Almost all money and publicity is supporting one version of reform, both democrats and 
republicans. With all this backing it, why is there only a rag tag network of homeschooling 
and christian parents asking the hard questions about what's driving half the state budget, 
and is probably the biggest part of government and the GNP like health care? 


Is is really a good idea to have EVERYONE supporting one side except a renegade like 
me? Not even affirmative action was ever this lop sided.


Why does such a huge issue get NO coverage on local politics newsgroups, and even 
less on a national level?


Have you heard of Marc Tucker? Did you know that his policies and NCEE have played 
a key leading role in standards based reforms covering every state in the union except for 
Iowa? Do you know where the ideas came from? And do you really want to get rid of 
"traditional" education?


goto http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu/index/edreform.htm for 


an introduction.




18>>
------------------------ Send Message: Editing Screen -------------
 To   :  RACE-POL@SCRIBE.CMP.ILSTU.EDU
 Subj :  Re: Fwd: sunshine in the testing warrens
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm curious how many people on race-pol are aware that of the
push of the "standards based education" movement which is based
on requiring students to get very high scores on very difficult
tests for grade promotion or graduation?


The ironic thing is that these tests were sold as being more
fair to minorities, yet minorities almost always show an even
wider gap on these tests than traditional basic skills test,
which is what you'd expect considering that open response tests
on tasks which require much more than  recall of facts are much
more difficult than multiple choice tests of materia common to
all curricula.


Why are the race-liberals holding their fire on reform-inspired
tests when they are even more harmful to minorities than
SAT and IQ style tests, or are people even aware of this new
SAT and IQ style tests, or are people even aware of this new
testing movement?




> Date sent:      Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:30:09 -0600
> Send reply to:  "RACE-POL:  The APSA Race, Ethnicity and Politics Section D"
>                 
> From:           Konopak 
> Subject:        Fwd: sunshine in the testing warrens
> To:             RACE-POL@SCRIBE.CMP.ILSTU.EDU


> FYEIEIO-- with apologies to those on several lists; i found this so
> compelling as to warrant wide distribution...
> >
> >Deep underground in their testing warrens the psychometric Morlocks fear
> >the sunshine of disclosure.
> >the sunshine of disclosure.
> >Their tests have no face validity.
> >Their tests have no pragmatic validity.
> >They cower in the dark recesses of the laws of intellectual property, to
> >hide what they do.
> >They don the masks of selective statistical correlations, to profit from
> >what they do.
> >What they do is to eat our children.
> >
> >JAY.
> those folks prolly otta be called "psycho me(re)tricians" *
>
> FWIW: the author of this ferocious and reflective indictment is Prof. Jay
> Lemke. He was writing in response to a  news story about the revelation by
> some Chicago teachers of the contents of a particularly and egregiously
> silly but ultimately punitive standardized test given city-wide, and the
> silly but ultimately punitive standardized test given city-wide, and the

> subsequent $1,000,000 suit brought against the teachers and the chicago
> school district by the testing company for the violation of intellectual
> property rights...puts one in mind of the John Silber-inspired "test" of
> aspirant teachers in Boston which asked them to listen to spoken 18th
> century english and transcribe what they heard, and annopunced proudly that
> 40% had failed at the task...he subsequently sent the following story:
> >Several years ago at an international conference I was at a table with some
> >distinguished members of the British educational establishment. They were
> >explaining to me how the university entrance testing system worked, in
> >which students had to undergo a marathon testing period of two or more
> >consecutive days duration, taking advanced level tests in several subjects.
> >In the discussion it came out that if a student failed one of the tests,
> >s/he had to take ALL the tests over again in another marathon. I asked why
> >not just let the student re-take the one test ... their horrified reaction
> >was 'if we let them do that, then _anyone_ could pass!'
19>>
So are we in agreement that all of these states running 
criterion referenced tests with 40-80% flunk rates are doing 
the wrong thing? And if so, doesn't that mean that you are 
against the principal idea behind "standards based education",
and therefore the rest of Marc Tucker's vision of a Certificate 
of Mastery given at age 16, and federal job skill credentialing 
based on similar tests?




Send reply to:  	"Gerald W. Bracey" 
From:           	"Gerald W. Bracey" 
To:             	
Subject:        	Re: [education-consumers] Bracey -- NAEP
Date sent:      	Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:49:09 -0800


> I thought I dealt with this.  You have to keep the tests and the
> "proficiency levels" separate.  I thought I noted that the same kids who
> can't read according to NAEP levels are third in the world among 26 nations
> in reading and third among 27 in science.
> 
> Now it is possible to say that the school crisis is global, but that is not
> what has been done when our kids don't show well.
> 
> The NAEP proficiency levels have been rejected by virtually everyone in the
> psychometric community.  Studies from the GAO and CRESST, among others have
> debunked them.
> 
> The kind of criterion represented by NAEP reveals the problem with virtually
> all criterion referenced tests in education.  In 1963 Bob Glaser at the
> University of Pittsburgh declared that for we can imagine achievement on a
> scale from zero competence to conspicuous excellence.  Along that continuum
> we can describe other behaviors and reference the behavior of who we are
> interested in to those descriptors.  That's criterion referencing.
> 
> The problem is that Glaser and all the enthusiasts who took up the crusade
> didn't seem to realize that most educational disciplines are so vague
> domains that it's impossible to specify those benchmarks.
> 
> Hence a lot of wasted time.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arthur hu 
> To: ClearingHouse ; Donna Garner
> 
> Cc: gbracey@erols.com ; wa-ed-deform@egroups.com


20>>
Interesting when he discusses SAT scores and college admissions, 
there is no mention of race as a factor! The interesting thing is that 
at schools where blacks were hurt most by SAT scores, SAT scores basically were discarded in favor of a separate scale for 
their race! Those that complain about test scores ignore the effects 
of affirmative action.


Date forwarded: 	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:54:15 -0500 (EST)
From:           	"Clyde Bruckman" 
To:             	"Upstream-List" 
Date sent:      	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:52:34 -0500
Subject:        	[Upstream] "Who Owns Intelligence?" --Howard Gardner in The Atlantic Monthly
Forwarded by:   	upstream-list@cycad.com
Send reply to:  	upstream-list@cycad.com


> http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/current/intel.htm




Let me introduce another analogy at this point. In college admissions much
attention is paid to scholastic performance, as measured by College Board
examinations and grades. However, other features are also weighed, and
sometimes a person with lower test scores is admitted if he or she proves
exemplary in terms of citizenship or athletics or motivation. Admissions
officers do not confound these virtues (indeed, they may use different
scales and issue different grades), but they recognize the attractiveness
of candidates who exemplify two or more desirable traits.


21>>
My strategy has to run for laughs as time and money will permit, but
accept the job if I somehow get it.




From:           	Quietlyjr@aol.com
Date sent:      	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:17:51 EST
To:             	arthurhu@halcyon.com
Subject:        	Re: thanks


> In a message dated 2/8/99 4:53:34 PM PST, arthurhu@halcyon.com writes:

> 
> > 
> >  Thanks, glad to see somebody noticed. What do you
> >  think about my running for superindentend of 
> >  public instruction against the entire public school
> >  industry and their corporate supporters?
> >  
> I would encourage you. We defeated the combined might of the race industry,
> downtown establishment, media, academia, white house, Boeing, Microsoft, et
> al. Did we not? 
> 
> >  Ed reform is affirmative action ideas applied to
> >  educational rather than racial classes, the problems
> >  are the same, but public ed affects everybody, not
> >  just the 2-3% affected by affirmative action. 
> >  
> What is your platform?
> 
> >  Spread the word, I'll need all the help I can  get
> >  since the chances of victory in the words of Spock
> >  are "real low".
> 
> Happy to spread the word. Tilting at windmills is good for the soul. Once in a
> while you win or at least open a few minds.
> 
> John A.




22>>
This is the same guy who applied Chines study habits to

African and Mexican Americans, now speaks to conservative 
think tank audiences.




\clip\99\05\treis.txt
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-02/08/080l-020899-idx.html
Mechanics of a 'Miracle' By William Raspberry Monday, February 8,
1999; Page A19 
Speaking generally, Treisman said, Asian students form what amount to
academic social groups, tackling difficult problems together,..he was
speaking at a conservative think tank Most scored nearly a whole
letter grade higher than their counterparts not in the program. What
had been maybe a half-dozen minority math majors when Treisman
arrived in Austin 10 years ago soon topped 150. (He's had 65 of
Escalante's former students, 12 of whom now have doctorates in math.)




23>>
Unfortunately, there is no comparable resource on Amazon for 
"computability" of math problems, but if you can negotiate my
math web page, it gives grade benchmarks where different skills 
appear in different texts, standards and assessments, and I have notes and samples that have appeard in various sample tests.


I also have the Japanese standards on that page somewhere. I
guess one thing I should do is actually publish a math spectrum
from K-high school telling what skills go where. I still have to figure

out where the high school stuff goes.


But as a quick list, the following are middle school skills commonly
put into elementary tests:


- elapsed time (3:30PM - 11:30AM  = ?)
- solve equation of form ax + bx = c ( i have 18 fruit, twice as manny
apples as oranges, half as many pears as oranges, solve)
- independent probability (jack gets heads 18 times out of 20 flips, 
what is chance of getting heads next)
- what is the price of a burger 2 shakes, and apple pie, and 2 feet of lumber @ 3.00 per ft
- which is the more concentrated - powder vs water


Most of these tests have 40-70% of problems either way above 
traditional grade level or not specified in benchmarks except as
"problem solving" which simply means being able to solve any
problem without being taught any standard algorithms or methods.


How much interest would there be if I came up with a math
guide comprehensible to normal people?


It also hit me over the head that I could go to my principle and if 
she doesn't support my view that the test is really hard, maybe I
could instead offer tutoring on WASL / NTCM math assessment
skills, since the chance of killing these tests in less than 2 years 
appears to be as Spock would calculate, really low.




From:           	rdyarrow@elnet.com
Date sent:      	Mon, 08 Feb 1999 17:47:11 -0600
To:             	arthurhu@halcyon.com
Subject:        	readability resource


> John's idea about analyzing readability of more questionable
"tests" develped these past few years is excellent.  >


24>>


Thanks. Asians usually don't score lower in math unless it is an open
response test with a heavy load of english - and the NAEP may just
fit this rule. Asians also scored lower on Washington's WASL on
average, though they were also disproportionate among the top scorers.


Asians seem to score lower in science in math despite massive 
over-representation in science classes and careers.


My take on Asian income and the "model minority myth" is that
what you have is a dual-minority, lots of people at the way top
and at the way bottom. English suffers much more than math
with poor Asians. Poor Asians outscore median whites and 
affluent blacks on SAT math. Many Asians go to the same 
urban systems with flying colors where their black and Hispanic
classmates do so poorly. Conversely, even when blacks go
to the same schools as the affluent suburban Asians, they
almost never do better than average, sometimes not even 
better than their urban counterparts.


Income, education, average quality / integration level generally do
_not_ equal parity in test scores for Blacks or Hispanics, although
exceptional schools like Barclay Baltimore and Wesley Houston
have demonstrated you can get average or above average 
performance out of poor black kids if you teach them carefully.


Send reply to:  	"Gerald W. Bracey" 
From:           	"Gerald W. Bracey" 
To:             	
Subject:        	Re: [education-consumers] Bracey -- NAEP
Date sent:      	Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:50:54 -0800


> Well, I certainly think Tucker is a huckster.
> 
> But I also think about something I thought I sent you and attach again.
> The difference among top US states and/or top US schools is enormous.  The
> question then is, what is the best way to improve the scores of the lowest
> schools?
> 
> I personally don't think that punitive measures--e.g., high stakes
> testing--are the way to go.
>