+OK 5427 octets Received: from smtp2.nwnexus.com (smtp2.nwnexus.com [198.137.231.18]) by mail1.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA00113 for ; Sun, 25 Oct 1998 01:04:16 -0800 (PST) From: GCruz29176@aol.com Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by smtp2.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA06390 for ; Sun, 25 Oct 1998 01:03:25 -0800 Received: from GCruz29176@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id PYTUa22760; Sun, 25 Oct 1998 04:02:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 04:02:37 EST To: mcduffee@netcom.com Cc: kspence@umich.edu, arthurhu@halcyon.com, letters@nytimes.com, comment@ceousa.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: bok and bowen's wrong conclusions about their data aka "the shape of the river " Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 224 Status: Guys, I posted an email to each one of you including Darkstar and Jlanier ( at least that is what the initials of his e-mail address start with ). Just to tell you how wrong the conclusions of the Bok and Bowen study are , let me refer you to July 8, 1998 Black Issues in Higher Education issue . The issue tells us that among the top 50 pro- -cers of black life sciences (biology , cell & molecular biology ) bacca- laureates , only Harvard and possibly NYU was on that, list if I remember it correctly. Only 1 Ivy League school appeared on the top 50 list .. The list also did not include a single if any liberal arts TWI ( traditionally white insti- -tion i.e "little Ivies " like Amherst, Williams, Oberlin etc. ) .. The issue further said that among the top 50 producers of black physical sciences grads ( physics, chemistry ) you could count on one hand the number of Ivy or "little Ivy " schools that belonged to to the top 50 producers of black physical science grads . Remember guys, that life science and chemistry grads are basically premeds ; and the Black Issues in HIgher Education journal was talking about 1995-96 grads . The journal further stated that only 2 or 3 " selective ( based on Bok and Bowen 's definition ) " schools belonged on the list of top 50 producers of black baccalaureate degrees ( science and otherwise ). So how can Bok and Bowen claim that the "selective " Ivy and " little Ivies " institiution do a better job in sending blacks to medical school ? Obviously public schools and HBCU 's (historically black colleges & universities ), in terms of absolute numbers send more blacks to medical schools than the Ivies and "little Ivies " or "C & B ( based on Bok's and Bowen's definition ) or "selective " schools for that matter. Past issues of Black Issues in Higher Education in previous years have printed the same conclusive data. MInd you guys , the journal was talking about very recent 1995- -96 data. If the " selective " private schools bans race preferences ( an oxymoron, since "selective " private schools engage in a vast array of preferences ------ alumni etc. ) , what do you think is gonna happen ? Well, those blacks denied admission at these "selective " private schools will just go to the public schools or " non - selective " private schools. I don't consider the Ivy schools as "selective " , since children of alumni make up > or = 20 % of the entering freshman class at Harvard, Stanford etc for that matter. And when the time comes for these rejected black students to apply to medical schools , they' ll just get in because of race preferences . As you can see, there is no signi- -ficant dent on the the number of blacks entering medical school if this was the case. What would make a significant dent on the number of blacks entering medical school is the situation where the medical schools themselves will ban race preferences. I wish somebody would give me Abigail Thernstrom's e-mail so she can use these facts as a fusilade against Bok and Bowen. As I had said in my e-mails before , Xavier University , a Roman Catholic institiution in New Orleans ; sends more blacks to medical school than Harvard in the past few years. Maybe a white chemistry professor from Arkansas, who goes by the name of Carmichael has something to do with that. Leonardo Jorge R. Cruz North Hollywood , California . +OK 9076 octets Received: from smtp9.nwnexus.com (smtp9.nwnexus.com [192.135.191.10]) by mail1.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13877 for ; Sun, 25 Oct 1998 17:34:10 -0800 (PST) From: GCruz29176@aol.com Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by smtp9.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15214 for ; Sun, 25 Oct 1998 17:33:55 -0800 Received: from GCruz29176@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 7SABa13872; Sun, 25 Oct 1998 20:32:30 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 20:32:30 EST To: letters@nationalreview.com Cc: yooj@berkeley.edu, arthurhu@halcyon.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Fwd: bok and bowen's wrong conclusions about their data aka "the shape of the... Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_909365551_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 224 Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_909365551_boundary Content-ID: <0_909365551@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I was not typeproofing my e-mail that well, I was typing fast, and I was getting sleepy during that late night. So let me reiterate again basic facts about that e-mail . Public universities train and send more black premeds to medical schools than the Ivies , the "little Ivies " and the C & B ( the 43 or so schools included in the Bok and Bowen study ) and "selective " private schools put together. According to the 1998 Chronicle of HIgher Education Summary of the State of Higher Education, only 32 % of blacks attending 4-year baccalureate institiutions attend a a private college or university.. It further said that only 25 % of blacks atten- -ding 4 -year college institiutions attend HBCU 's ( historically black colleges and universities i.e. public schools like Texas Prairie A & M, Alcorn State or private schools like Hampton and Howard ). Furthermore that percentage is even declining. So how can " selective " private schools send more black premeds to medical schools than public schools , when their share of the black 4-year college undergrad population is much smaller than that of public schools ? The data in Black Issues In Higher Education with regards to the top 50 producers of black life sciences and physical sciences grads in this country bears this fact out. Even private black schools like Morehouse, Spelman, Howard Hampton, Clark Atlanta and Xavier put together graduate less black undergrads than the combined output of Temple, Wayne State , University of South Carolina (Columbia ), Georgia State, University of Illinois (Chicago campus ) , University of Maryland-College Park and Florida International University . There are about 200-300 public universities in this country, well maybe 300-400 , and I am sure blacks enroll in many of those universities. Just to throw a bone in ,you can substitute University of Southern Illinois (Carbondale ) if you want to, (Gee, I'm getting sarcastic at these Bok and Bowen guys ) . Somebody give me the Thernstrom's .e-mail ........(should I write to Harvard ? ) P. S. What I meant is that you can substitute Southern Illinois U for Florida International University. Leonardo Jorge R. Cruz North Hollywood , California --part0_909365551_boundary Content-ID: <0_909365551@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: GCruz29176@aol.com Return-path: To: mcduffee@netcom.com Cc: kspence@umich.edu, arthurhu@halcyon.com, letters@nytimes.com, comment@ceousa.org Subject: bok and bowen's wrong conclusions about their data aka "the shape of the river " Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 04:02:37 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Guys, I posted an email to each one of you including Darkstar and Jlanier ( at least that is what the initials of his e-mail address start with ). Just to tell you how wrong the conclusions of the Bok and Bowen study are , let me refer you to July 8, 1998 Black Issues in Higher Education issue . The issue tells us that among the top 50 pro- -cers of black life sciences (biology , cell & molecular biology ) bacca- laureates , only Harvard and possibly NYU was on that, list if I remember it correctly. Only 1 Ivy League school appeared on the top 50 list .. The list also did not include a single if any liberal arts TWI ( traditionally white insti- -tion i.e "little Ivies " like Amherst, Williams, Oberlin etc. ) .. The issue further said that among the top 50 producers of black physical sciences grads ( physics, chemistry ) you could count on one hand the number of Ivy or "little Ivy " schools that belonged to to the top 50 producers of black physical science grads . Remember guys, that life science and chemistry grads are basically premeds ; and the Black Issues in HIgher Education journal was talking about 1995-96 grads . The journal further stated that only 2 or 3 " selective ( based on Bok and Bowen 's definition ) " schools belonged on the list of top 50 producers of black baccalaureate degrees ( science and otherwise ). So how can Bok and Bowen claim that the "selective " Ivy and " little Ivies " institiution do a better job in sending blacks to medical school ? Obviously public schools and HBCU 's (historically black colleges & universities ), in terms of absolute numbers send more blacks to medical schools than the Ivies and "little Ivies " or "C & B ( based on Bok's and Bowen's definition ) or "selective " schools for that matter. Past issues of Black Issues in Higher Education in previous years have printed the same conclusive data. MInd you guys , the journal was talking about very recent 1995- -96 data. If the " selective " private schools bans race preferences ( an oxymoron, since "selective " private schools engage in a vast array of preferences ------ alumni etc. ) , what do you think is gonna happen ? Well, those blacks denied admission at these "selective " private schools will just go to the public schools or " non - selective " private schools. I don't consider the Ivy schools as "selective " , since children of alumni make up > or = 20 % of the entering freshman class at Harvard, Stanford etc for that matter. And when the time comes for these rejected black students to apply to medical schools , they' ll just get in because of race preferences . As you can see, there is no signi- -ficant dent on the the number of blacks entering medical school if this was the case. What would make a significant dent on the number of blacks entering medical school is the situation where the medical schools themselves will ban race preferences. I wish somebody would give me Abigail Thernstrom's e-mail so she can use these facts as a fusilade against Bok and Bowen. As I had said in my e-mails before , Xavier University , a Roman Catholic institiution in New Orleans ; sends more blacks to medical school than Harvard in the past few years. Maybe a white chemistry professor from Arkansas, who goes by the name of Carmichael has something to do with that. Leonardo Jorge R. Cruz North Hollywood , California --part0_909365551_boundary-- . +OK 7667 octets Received: from smtp3.nwnexus.com (smtp3.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.41]) by mail1.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24974 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 00:42:18 -0800 (PST) From: GCruz29176@aol.com Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by smtp3.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA16361 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 00:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from GCruz29176@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id RATVa22759 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 03:41:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <329140d3.36382a23@aol.com> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 03:41:07 EST To: arthurhu@halcyon.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: reply to e-mail Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 224 Status: Ron Takaki can believe whatever he wants , I don't believe giving preferences to Pinoys (Piliipinos) who are the children of doctors,nurses and other middle class or rich Pilipinos , It is alright to give preferences to poor Pinoys. It is indeed sad that people like Ron say they support race preferences publicly , and then go around the state of California trying to resurrect race preferences in Callifornia ( I believe Ron is on a sabbati- -cal right now ) .The initiative that he is trying to get off the ground to reverse Prop 209 will not succeed. It has been obvious to me to for a long time that a lot of the Asian American professiorate publicly proclaim their support for race preferences. Privately , they may or may not support race preferences even though publicly they feel compelled to proclaim their support for it. A lot of them are silent on the matter. You get people like Ron or Ling-chi wang or Elaine Kim at Berkeley who are more vocal about it. Or you might get people like Shirley Hune here at UCLA who are less vocal about it like Don Nakanishi also of UCLA. I guess every Asian American professor have their own reasons as to why they should be vocal or not in their support for it...Asian American student organizations throughout the country generally support race preferences (even though I suspect many of their members are privately against it ). They have made . made their peace with that subject matter (the organizations at least ). The reasons are obvious.,which brings us to the matter of Pilipino student organizations. A long time ago, way back in the 80's I was a member of a Pilipino group that was protesting against the Marcos dictatorship. Naturally, Pilipino student groups in the UC system were regarded as natural allies in this kind of work. Being in contact with these student groups , I came to realize that they are heavily influenced by leftist ideologues. It should not surprise you then that many of these Pilipino and Asian student groups will support race preferences . I knew even before I sent e-mails to these student groups about race preferences, the kind of response I was going to get. They are just going to ignore me , even though some of their members might privately agree with my views. Even though that is the case, it should not stop me or anyone from speaking out against race preferences. Fear and cowardice is a common element in this reluctance to speak out against race preferences. Professors have learned a long time ago as to what is the politically correct thing to say. On another note, it seems even the AMA has joined the fray with their New York Times ads against I-200. Probably , what will really break the back of race preferences programs are initiatives or lawsuits in states in the Atlantic seaboard. In an earlier e-mail of yours, you speculated as to why Asians have remained stuck at 28% or thereabouts of the entering class of MIT for the past 5 years. You suggested that it might have to do with changes in career choices of Asians. We'll it might , but I think it has more to do with MIT's reluctance to offer more tuition discounts (bribes) to Asian Americans, for doing so would mean loss of tuition revenue. "Yield " in college admissions lingo is what you call the percentage of admitted applicants to the school who take up on or accepts the offer of admission by the school. Should it then surprise you as to why Caltech's (48 %) and MIT's (53%) yield rates are lower than Cooper Union's (71%) yield rate ? Obviously Cooper Union's bribe (free tuition ) is better than MIT's or Caltech's bribe (higher out-of-pocket tuition cost ) . The only school back east that equals Cooper Union's yield rate is Harvard. I guess Harvard gives better bribes than MIT. Should it surprise you that the yield rates of Boston College Law School (22 %) and Boston University Law School (23%) is lower than that of CUNY Queens Law School (30% ---even though Cuny Queens Law had the lowest passing rate in the New York Bar exam)?. The Queens College of Law matriculants were willing to ignore the low 58 % passing rate for the cheap public school tuition. Should it surprise you that Georgia State University Law School has a yield rate of 48 % compared to Emory Law's 19 % ( see ABA guidebook 1998 ed.) ? (University of Georgia Law school has a higher Georgia bar pass rate than Emory) Finally , I'd like to make a comment about my frequent e-mail assertions that private university admissions (Ivy or otherwise) is like a gigantic haggling, bargaining souk (bazaar). There was an article that appeared in USA Today ( 10/27/98 or 10/26/98 ) . It confirmed what I had known about private schools for a long time. I guess by now, one must understand that when push comes to shove a private school cares very little if at all about one's grades or SAT scores. Take note of the admission made by Stanford's dean of admissions in that article. Or take note of Swarthmore's confession that only 41 % of applicants who scored a perfect SAT verbal of 800 are offered admission. I had said in the past. a few times, that in 1996 ,175 applicants with perfect 1600 SAT scores were denied admissions to Harvard. Bottomline is , if a private school feels that an applicant will not contribute to the survival (economic ) of the school, then he or she will not be admitted. Who said that Harvard is is not like you mom and pop store at the street corner? Le onardo Jorge R. Cruz .