Cybercoolies \doc\web\98\08\cybrcool.txt Date sent: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:45:53 -0500 Send reply to: H-NET List on Ethnic History From: Richard Jensen Subject: H-ETHNIC: cybercoolies To: H-ETHNIC@H-NET.MSU.EDU The term "cybercoolie" has been used in the computer industry to apply to low-paid and overworked immigrant programmers in general, and the H-1 visa workers in particular. These days, the Indians outnumber the Chinese. If you find a programmer you like who does not have a visa, a company can sponsor the immigrant on the basis that he has skills for a jobs that cannot be filled by a native. Sometimes there have been reports of companies firing native staff to fill up with lower paid Asian labor. Professor Norman Matloff of UC Davis is pretty much king of arguments that any such immigrant can and should be replaced by unemployed or underemployed programmers from industries that have laid people off. Such arguments have been making the rounds in congress that being tied to an employer's willingness to sponsor makes you an indentured servant that lowers wages and takes away jobs much as the original coolies were the object of an anti-Chinese immigrant movement by the "workingman's party" and similar labor groups at the end of the 1800s. For those looking for a book, I don't have a book, but I do have probably the most extensive collection of pro-immigration arguments and data at http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu/index/immig.htm Briefly, I find that immigrants lead to industries with very high wage rates, high rates of job growth, low rates of unemployment, high living standards, and high innovation. I happen to be a conservative, but such arguments should be of use to liberal defenders of immigrants. Arthur Hu "Fairness in Diversity" Kirkland WA http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu/ Date sent: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:46:14 -0500 Send reply to: H-NET List on Ethnic History From: Richard Jensen Subject: H-ETHNIC: coolies? not; so drop "cybercoolies" To: H-ETHNIC@H-NET.MSU.EDU From: Siva Vaidhyanathan The use of "coolie" in "cybercoolie" is improper. "Coolies" were not part of the 19th century Chinese-American labor force. The term "coolie" defines a specific form of unfree labor that was common among diasporic Chinese laborers in Cuba, S. America and other places around the world. While the wages and living conditions of Chinese-American laborers were deplorable, Chinese Americans in the 19th century did not endure the same type or level of deprivation as coolies did. See the work of Sucheng Chan for more information on the differences. Siva Siva Vaidhyanathan History Department Wesleyan University Middletown, CT 06459 ==[ed: Chan, This Bittersweet Soil : The Chinese in California Agriculture, 1860-1910, U California Press, 1989; and Asian Americans : An Interpretive History (Twayne's Immigrant Heritage of America Series) (1991)] Date sent: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:02:33 -0500 Send reply to: H-NET List on Ethnic History From: Richard Jensen Subject: H-ETHNIC: more on "Cybercoolies" To: H-ETHNIC@H-NET.MSU.EDU I am an immigration lawyer with a firm that does a lot of work with the academic community. It should be noted that, for all the emphasis on immigration and the high-technology sector, the H-1B program is available for any position that requires at minimum a bachelor's degree in a particular field. Thus, graphic designers, teachers, financial analysts etc. all work in the US as H-1Bs. My own experience is that American employers generally shy away from sponsoring foreign workers because of the perceived "bureaucratic hassle". That may be less true of larger companies, which need to to bring in many employees at a time and have more experience with the process. Two final points about the H-1B program. First, many people in H-1B status are already in the United States, usually as foreign students. Second, the H-1B program is a safety valve for many foreigners since it allows them to work in the US while their green card applications are pending with the US government. Paul Herzog -- Law Offices of Adam Green 6300 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 1620 Los Angeles CA 90048-5204 tel. (323) 852-6135 fax. (323) 966-4980 H-ETHNIC@H-NET.MSU.EDU For those interested in immigration history, and parallels with the present, it is my position (and a few people are starting to agree with me) that the modern case against immigrant programmers is very similar to the late 1800's movement against Chinese labor, where their handbill proclaimed openly that "The Chinese Must Go!". Norman Matloff of UC Davis has recently backed off some of his more obviously anti-Chinese positions, but if you look at his web site at some of this older "studies", they are all extremely critical or dismissive of the skills, contributions, and abilities of immigrants in general, and Chinese Americans in particular. For those interested in the issue of racism in public policy, this is a fellow who openly states that his sympathies are with the Chinese community that he participates in, yet his papers consistently pit immigrant Asians and Hispanics against African Americans and un/under-employed Asian and White American programmers. This is a curious variant of anti-immigrant thinking that presents itself as defending blacks against racist heathens. I do believe that the works of this man deserve study by the wider academic community considering that he has been cited by nearly every major city newspaper and most computer industry journals, and has testified before congress. His "research" was also the basis for congress completely removing all non-citizen immigrants from welfare-like benefit programs. No study of the modern anti-immigrant movement should be complete without him, oddly enough, there has been no published direct responses or criticism of his works from either ethnic activists or the academic community. I don't any individual alive today has had more influence on legislation restricting the rights and numbers of immigrants than this man. My review of his positions is at http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu/index/matloff.htm It also has links to another large matloff "fan" site, and matloff's own site. Date sent: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:27:01 -0500 From: Richard Jensen Subject: Re: H-ETHNIC: coolies? not; so drop "cybercoolies" To: arthurhu@halcyon.com Copies to: joe Arthur-- thanks for the item but it doesn't add much to the discussion so we won't post it. "Coolie" labor was much feared, and was actually used in other countries. It means a very tight labor contract that made the person practically a slave. Richard -----Original Message----- ----------------- Message requiring your approval (40 lines) ------------------ That's news to me, I've heard coolie used all the time, all in reference to chinese americans. Perhaps that's where the term started from, my understanding is that it means something like hard laborer, if somebody has the literal translation of the chinese characters, I'd like to hear about it. Anyways, tell that to the people in silicon valley that use the term cybercoolie. Date sent: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:46:14 -0500 Send reply to: H-NET List on Ethnic History From: Richard Jensen Subject: H-ETHNIC: coolies? not; so drop "cybercoolies" To: H-ETHNIC@H-NET.MSU.EDU > From: Siva Vaidhyanathan > The use of "coolie" in "cybercoolie" is improper. "Coolies" were not > part of the 19th century Chinese-American labor force. The term "coolie" > defines a specific form of unfree labor that was common among diasporic > Chinese laborers in Cuba, S. America and other places around the world. > While the wages and living conditions of Chinese-American laborers were > deplorable, Chinese Americans in the 19th century did not endure the > same type or level of deprivation as coolies did. See the work of > Sucheng Chan for more information on the differences. > > > Siva > Siva Vaidhyanathan > History Department Wesleyan University Middletown, CT 06459 Date sent: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:00:33 -0500 From: Richard Jensen Subject: Re: "Cybercoolies" - why don't academics study the works of Norman Matloff UC Davis. To: arthurhu@halcyon.com Copies to: joe Arthur-- Joe Barton and I appreciate your postings, but think this one is needlessly aggressive and hostile. Richard -----Original Message----- From: arthur hu To: H-ETHNIC@H-NET.MSU.EDU Date: Thursday, October 29, 1998 7:01 PM Subject: "Cybercoolies" - why don't academics study the works of Norman Matloff UC Davis. This message was originally submitted by arthurhu@HALCYON.COM to the H-ETHNIC list at H-NET.MSU.EDU. If you simply forward it back to the list, using a mail command that generates "Resent-" fields (ask your local user support or consult the documentation of your mail program if in doubt), it will be distributed and the explanations you are now reading will be removed automatically. If on the other hand you edit the contributions you receive into a digest, you will have to remove this paragraph manually. Finally, you should be able to contact the author of this message by using the normal "reply" function of your mail program. ----------------- Message requiring your approval (46 lines) ------------------ H-ETHNIC@H-NET.MSU.EDU For those interested in immigration history, and parallels with the present, it is my position (and a few people are starting to agree with me) that the modern case against immigrant programmers is very similar to the late 1800's movement against Chinese labor, where their handbill proclaimed openly that "The Chinese Must Go!". Norman Matloff of UC Davis has recently backed off some of his more obviously anti-Chinese positions, but if you look at his web site at some of this older "studies", they are all extremely critical or dismissive of the skills, contributions, and abilities of immigrants in general, and Chinese Americans in particular. For those interested in the issue of racism in public policy, this is a fellow who openly states that his sympathies are with the Chinese community that he participates in, yet his papers consistently pit immigrant Asians and Hispanics against African Americans and un/under-employed Asian and White American programmers. This is a curious variant of anti-immigrant thinking that presents itself as defending blacks against racist heathens. I do believe that the works of this man deserve study by the wider academic community considering that he has been cited by nearly every major city newspaper and most computer industry journals, and has testified before congress. His "research" was also the basis for congress completely removing all non-citizen immigrants from welfare-like benefit programs. No study of the modern anti-immigrant movement should be complete without him, oddly enough, there has been no published direct responses or criticism of his works from either ethnic activists or the academic community. I don't any individual alive today has had more influence on legislation restricting the rights and numbers of immigrants than this man. My review of his positions is at http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu/index/matloff.htm It also has links to another large matloff "fan" site, and matloff's own site. arthur hu kirkland WA arthurhu@halcyon.com "fairness in diversity" http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu Received: from h-net.hst.msu.edu (HELO h-net) (35.8.2.57) by h-net.hst.msu.edu with SMTP; 29 Oct 1998 05:22:17 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 00:18:51 -0500 Reply-To: H-NET List on Ethnic History Sender: H-NET List on Ethnic History From: Richard Jensen Subject: H-ETHNIC: cybercoolies 3 To: H-ETHNIC@H-NET.MSU.EDU Status: from Seanna Oakley seannasumalee@WORLDNET.ATT.NET I'm working as a paralegal in order to pay off grad loans and do nothing but H-1B visa petitions. Probably tens of hundreds of cases, and many of them South Asians, go through the office, and each of these temporary workers working in communications software engineering/programming are receiving way above the prevailing wage, at least as established in California. Typically, where the prevailing wage is $57,553, the client will receive with all benefits $83,000, even more. I can't mention companies, but what I see in writing up cases is that all the giant companies in the industry are finding completely highly qualified, prepared workers already at hand where there just isn't the same supply available in the U.S. It appears that both China and India have several schools concentrating only in training for communications/computer technology professional work and offering exactly the coursework required to do the job. Industries other than communications/computer tech which lobby for H-1B visas...well, there it varies, and perhaps, too often in the disfavor of the worker. .