SUPPORT FOR MATLOFF IMMIGRATION SITE \doc\web\98\06\formatt.txt Re: Software Engineers, your job is at stake! [Latest Update] more headers Email: robinesque@my-dejanews.com Date: 1998/08/12 Forums: comp.software-eng view for bookmarking · text only In article <6qd4bs$6hf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, null@null.xv (Marcus Aurelius) wrote: > H.R. 3736 has gone down in flames for the time being. No vote will take place > until after the Summer recess. > > Last week at this time passage of the H-1B expansion appeared certain. A week > later it appears unlikely. The efforts of the programming community played a > significant part in delaying this digraceful Bill. > One important voice is Norman Matloff, who wrote a great article "Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage." He shows that the shortage is only in isolated pockets, and that older programmers go begging for jobs, while employers pass them up for new graduates and foreign workers. The full text can be seen at http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum Author: Christopher C. Lamb author profile email reply view thread post new · post reply subscribe Email: cclamb@sandia.gov Date: 1998/08/13 Forums: comp.software-eng view for bookmarking · text only robinesque@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > In article <6qd4bs$6hf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, > null@null.xv (Marcus Aurelius) wrote: > > H.R. 3736 has gone down in flames for the time being. No vote will take place > > until after the Summer recess. > > > > Last week at this time passage of the H-1B expansion appeared certain. A week > > later it appears unlikely. The efforts of the programming community played a > > significant part in delaying this digraceful Bill. > > > > One important voice is Norman Matloff, who wrote a great article "Debunking > the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage." He shows that the shortage > is only in isolated pockets, and that older programmers go begging for jobs, > while employers pass them up for new graduates and foreign workers. The full > text can be seen at http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html. This is really disturbing. I've just started an MS in CS, and now I'm wondering if this is just a big mistake. What options will I have when I get out? What can I do to avoid being unemployed 10 yrs. from now if this is how the industry views sofware people? Any advice? Maybe I should just drop it and go to law school? How depressing. Chris Lamb Interest Finder Browse Groups Search Find messages in the archive Wanderlust. Travel with a passion. Message 5 of 40 help return to current results Re: How to manage careers? was Re: Software Engineers, your job is at stake! [Latest Update] more headers << Previous message >> N e x t message Author: Jon Poletti author profile email reply view thread post new · post reply subscribe Email: trajon@shell.fred.net Date: 1998/08/15 Forums: comp.software-eng >>I'm happy). >> >>>How depressing. >> >>Pick up a copy of a newspaper in any metropolitan area. There's tons of >>work. > >You're obviously under 40. 37 This is the first I've heard about "age" discrimination in our field. I can tell you that I have never run into it. During my career I have been at several companies (9) and am often heavily involved in the hiring of candidates) and I have never even heard the words "He's/She's too old."). One caveat: Most of my career has been in product development where mature software developmnent skills are vital. I have been in situations where I've had an opening on my team for a developer with 3 years of experience with a specific language. Given my budget I can only afford to spend a certain amount of money to fill that slot. If someone comes along with 3 years of experience and a salary in-line with my expectations I don't care how old he/she is. But I can tell you this, if someone shows up with 3 years and wants 'x' and someone else comes along with 15 years and wants '2x' I'm going to go with the developers wanting 'x' (provided he has the appropriate skills). Its actually a no-brainer. In case you haven't noticed we work in a competitive industry. The trick to staying on top is "value add." If you are just a programmer working in the same language for a number of years, you are going to top out. There is no question about it. Companies can replace you with someone who is going to work for less - especially if they know the business domain. This isn't charity and there are no hand-outs. It is business. Once you are indistinguishable from your co-workers or the new applicants walking in off the street you become a commodity. You want to work at all costs to avoid being in that suitation, because once there you lose all leverage. It might not be fair, but that is the way it is. There are certainly ways to stay employable. The best is to keep on top of new technolgies and to do a great job -- do whatever it takes. It is not easy, but what worthwhile is. Since I started my professional career I've developed products written in: FORTRAN, PL/M, Assembly, C, C++, and Java and I've worked on more operating systems than I can count. Constant change, constant retooling. I've also been an individual contributor, project lead, technical lead, sw mgr -- not always in that order. I've taken pay cuts to get in with new technology and walked away from great jobs in completely mismanaged companies. I've also had companies disappear out from under me - places I loved working and would have stayed forever. I've also picked up and moved 3 times and have endured long commutes when moving wasn't an option. It can be a very humbling field. It is hard to suck it up when your manager is 10 years younger and is making mistakes left and right and it is hard managing people 15 years older than you who are suddenly shaken awake by the changes occuring within their companies. Always work for the future. Other than yourself, your family, and your friends, no one is going to take care of you. Jon return to current results Re: Merced doomed, Intel runs crying to HP: "Please save us!" more headers << Previous message >> N e x t message Author: H.W. Stockman author profile email reply view thread post new · post reply subscribe Email: hwstock@wizard.com Date: 1998/08/08 Forums: intel.etc, intel.microprocessors.celeron, intel.microprocessors.pentium_ii view for bookmarking · text only Toonces wrote: > > Excerpts from: > > http://www.igc.org/faceintel/comments.htm#12 > To test the reliability of this site, I examined the premises of the below quoted claims, namely that Intel really has no obvious way for people to find jobs through their sites, and the jobs are very scarce (2 is the claim). Without trying to follow the convoluted path taken in the claims below I tried: www.intel.com click on company info click on jobs at Intel click on Search Jobs (USA location from Menu) click on "All locations" within USA ...which returned 18 positions. Seemed like a prety straightforward process to me, and one that yielded more than 2. I think that should give us some sense of the reliability of the "Face Intel" site. ===============Claims from Face Intel site:===================== 11 - Message from Norman Matloff (UC Davis Computer Science Professor). He is a prominent national figure in fighting against increase in H1-B visa quota of 65,000 per year. To mailing list: Enclosed is a very interesting message from a member of this e-mail list. For all of Intel's public cries that they are "desperate" to hire, they don't seem to have many positions open. The writer here searched indirectly. I went to Intel's home page, http://www.intel.com, to confirm. As he mentioned, Intel does not even have an Employment item to click on there, another oddity for a "desperate" employer. However, it turns out that if one clicks on the About Intel item, one does get to the jobs listing---and sure enough, there is not much there, only two programmer positions and no engineering jobs, for all of the U.S. Norm ***************************************************************** Intel is a key proponent of increased H-1B limits, and opposition to "safeguards" for U.S. citizens. However, a search for job openings on their official site for "all U.S. locations" and "all job categories" reveals only one opening in the entire U.S. http://www.careermosaic.com/cm/intel/intel11.html (Accessed from the "search jobs" drop-down box at) http://www.intel.com/intel/oppty/index.htm Likewise, "view all European jobs" returns "no postings" http://www.intel.com/intel/oppty/europe/jobs.htm Further, there is not even a link from their homepage to the job search site, nor any mention of openings or recruitment. http//www.intel.com Author: Toonces author profile email reply view thread post new · post reply subscribe Email: toonces@thecat.com Date: 1998/08/07 Forums: intel.etc, intel.microprocessors.celeron, intel.microprocessors.pentium_ii view for bookmarking · text only Excerpts from: http://www.igc.org/faceintel/comments.htm#12 "Due to continuous management problems, Merced's completion date is getting repeatedly delayed. Even though there is a tape-out date for the project, many engineers question whether Merced will be a competitive product at all, even if it isn't delayed again." [...] "Another major problem is that many engineers are losing their hope on Merced. As a result of this lack of faith and a lot management induced pressures, engineers tend to transfer out of Merced. Since they are not allowed to transfer out of the Merced, they quit Intel." [...] "Rumors have it that Intel could cancel the whole project all together because they are surer about McKinley's schedule. They could introduce McKinley as Merced. McKinley is very similar to Merced from a customer's standpoint. The major difference is that McKinley would be better! The reason is that McKinley is designed by HP, and not Intel." http://www.igc.org/faceintel/comments.htm 11 - Message from Norman Matloff (UC Davis Computer Science Professor). He is a prominent national figure in fighting against increase in H1-B visa quota of 65,000 per year. To mailing list: Enclosed is a very interesting message from a member of this e-mail list. For all of Intel's public cries that they are "desperate" to hire, they don't seem to have many positions open. The writer here searched indirectly. I went to Intel's home page, http://www.intel.com, to confirm. As he mentioned, Intel does not even have an Employment item to click on there, another oddity for a "desperate" employer. However, it turns out that if one clicks on the About Intel item, one does get to the jobs listing---and sure enough, there is not much there, only two programmer positions and no engineering jobs, for all of the U.S. Norm ***************************************************************** Intel is a key proponent of increased H-1B limits, and opposition to "safeguards" for U.S. citizens. However, a search for job openings on their official site for "all U.S. locations" and "all job categories" reveals only one opening in the entire U.S. http://www.careermosaic.com/cm/intel/intel11.html (Accessed from the "search jobs" drop-down box at) http://www.intel.com/intel/oppty/index.htm Likewise, "view all European jobs" returns "no postings" http://www.intel.com/intel/oppty/europe/jobs.htm Further, there is not even a link from their homepage to the job search site, nor any mention of openings or recruitment. http//www.intel.com Where are the positions that they are unable to fill with U.S. citizens?