\doc\web\98\01\german.txt bcc: @EDLOOP.PML,@EDU.PML subject: thread: US STW vs. Japan and Germany 3/4 Compiled by Arthur Hu arthurhu@halcyon.com filed at http://www.leconsulting.com/arthurhu/98/01/germstw.txt Hi all, here is a thread when I asked on newsgroups to compare German and Japanese tracking and school to work to the US system of sending everybody through 12 years through one high school system, with no official apprenticeship-through-school system:: @@Part 1 Date sent: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:06:46 -0600 (CST) From: Heather Kaltinger Copies to: arthurhu@halcyon.com Subject: Re: Apprenticeships and 11th 12th grade On 6 Jan 1998, Arthur Hu wrote: > most Japanese and Germans have to take a test to > go on to college, and those that don't hack it > have to spend 11th and 12th grade tightening bolts > instead, and the US wants to institute school-to- > work to emulate countries that are actually behind > the US in terms of education level. Actually it has been my impression that the German education has some excellent points to it that the U.S. system doesn't have. I am not familiar with the German apprenticeship systerm but I have met many Germans and Americans who were familiar with both the U.S. and Germany and they all seemed to feel that the German apprenticeship program is generally better. Whether or not that is true, I don't know since I don't have much to compare... They say it's good, but miss that US workers start with a 12th grade education. By US standards, most german workers are dropouts! From: "Roland & Christine Wolf" To: "Arthur Hu" Subject: Re: Apprenticeships and 11th 12th grade Date sent: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:45:53 +0100 > Many Americans seek to emulate the apprenticeship > systems of Japan and Germany, but in the US, most > students aspire to go to college, and over 60% > continue after 12th grade, while I understand that > most Japanese and Germans have to take a test to > go on to college, and those that don't hack it > have to spend 11th and 12th grade tightening bolts > instead, and the US wants to institute school-to- > work to emulate countries that are actually behind > the US in terms of education level. > I have just finsihed Carl Sagans "A Demon Haunted World....", despite the title a non-fiction book. Sagan does a comparison of the US, Korean, Japanese and German education at schools, and I didn`t get the impression that the US won hands down. It goes with my personal experience as an exchange student in 1981. Before you compare the US and German Schools, you have to know that Germany has three types of secondary schools: Hauptschule, Realschule and Gynasium. You finish the Hauptschule at 15, Realschule at 16 and Gymnasium at 19. Having visited a Gymnasium is the only way to get to a University. The Seperation of students into the schools is done after primary school, at the age of 10. The next 2 years are a probation period-flunk a class once, and off you go to the next, easier level. The Realschule and the Gymnasium end with an exam. It is a bit difficult to compare studends from the US and Germany, since the emphasis of the Schools is a bit different. Also, the quality of US Schools tends to differ more from each other then their German counterparts. Yet, from what I have seen and read, a German student with Abitur has learned a bit more than hios US counterpart. This comes, among other things from being at School longer (13 Years with 220 days vs. 12 years with 180 days) Originally, the apprenticeship system was intended for the students of Real- and Hauptschulen. The apprenticeship system is not restricted to blue color jobs, but practically any profession has it`s apprentices. These days, a lot of Students with Abitur take an apprenticeship too, since a part of it can be used to shorten your stay at the University. During the apprenticeship, you work 3-4 days for you employer and goto school 1-2 days. Some of the subjects are job related, while others brush up you math, grammar, etc. If you visited the Realschule and have done your apprenticeship there are certain types of University level studies open to you. They are done at special schools, called Fachhochschulen. Their curiculums tend to be more practically minded, and their students are sought after. Overall, the apprenticeship system tends to bring out very competend workers who have a lot of own initiative. When I worked with US companies, I saw that they had to prepare the job orders much more closly than their German counterparts did. The company I worked for assembled turbines, which were also licence build by Westinghouse. Our engeneers were quite astonished when they learned that they had to describe every weld. In Germany they could leave this to the Welders and expect good results. Hope that helps, Roland Wolf Germany From: Achim_Scheve@mk2.maus.sauerland.de (Achim Scheve) To: arthurhu@halcyon.com Subject: Apprenticeships and 11th 12th grade Date sent: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:25:00 +0100 Organization: MAUS Iserlohn-Kalthof (+49-2371-944925) Kommentar zu A43062@MK2 in der Gruppe soc.culture.german arthurhu@halcyon.com schrieb am 06.01.98 in der UseNetMessage 68ugc6$c9a$1@halcyon.com (Gruppe soc.culture.german): AH>Many Americans seek to emulate the apprenticeship systems of Japan and AH>Germany, but in the US, most students aspire to go to college, and AH>over 60% continue after 12th grade, while I understand that most AH>Japanese and Germans have to take a test to go on to college, and AH>those that don't hack it have to spend 11th and 12th grade tightening AH>bolts instead, and the US wants to institute school-to- work to AH>emulate countries that are actually behind the US in terms of AH>education level. AH> Can someone reply to me by email at arthurhu@halcyon.com and explain AH>how high school after the 10th grade works in Japan or Germany? Hi Arthur! To understand the german education system you have first to know that education is done by the states and that education is very different. The school system is split in the regular system(Regelschulen) and in the special schools (Sonderschulen). Special schools are very special schools f.e. for blinds, wheelchair users, mentally disabled etc or for migrants failing to solve a IQ-Test in unknown languages that are declared for their mother language. Make your next IQ-Test in german language and the test will show that your IQ is near zero... The first 4 or 6 grades sit together unseperated in the Grundschule. (The only seperation is by religion. A Grundschule can be a christan school, or a school for catholics or protestants. In practice there are christan schools for protestants etc and catholics.) Then they are seperated into the different schools. The Hauptschule runs from the 5th or 7th grade to the 9th or 10th grade. In some areas f.e. in the inner city of Cologne the school is reserved for migrants, f.e. 85% of all students have no german citizenship! (Please note that children fresh from Russia unable to speak germ are german citizens and that children with one german parent (born anywhere!!!) are german citizens.) To pass the 10th grade with qualification gives some rights to visit the 11th grade. The Realschule runs from the 5th or 7th grade to the 10th grade. The school is reserved for better students. The Gymnasium runs from 5th grade or 7th grade to grade 12 or 13. The Gymnasium is the easy way to university, you have only to walk on the straight way to university. The Gesamtschule is a school wich schould not seperate students. The Gesamtschule runs from the 5th grade to the 10th grade and to the 12th grade or 13th grade. In some german states all these schools do exist in the same towns and live under competition. In other states there are only two schools. At Gymnasium a student only has to pass the 10th grade to stay on the road to university. Other students need a qualification after 10th grade to enter the road to university. The apprenticeship schools are very different. It is possible to visit them after the 9th grade or even after the 13th grade. *The job makes the difference* There are not only blue collar and white collar jobs, there are pure blue collar jobs and blue collar jobs f.e. including the programming of microchips. There are bad paid white collar jobs and well paid white collar jobs f.e. for bank manager. The education is based on the dual system. It is based on learning by doing and on learning in school. There are different classes in the Berufsschule f.e. classes for carpenters or bank managers. The students have to write reports about their working and schow them to the teachers. The teachers speak to the students about their learning. The Berufsschule lasts from 2 to 4 years. In most cases it is 3 years. Because not all people leaving school find a job as apprenticeship, there are some full time schools with same months of working only. There are also some mixed schools giving the students a working qualification and qualification to visit university. There are also some apprenticeship programs with a university style. (For some state jobs and for some business administration.) The german university system is splitted in normal universities f.e. for economics or law and in special universities f.e. for engeneers and business administration. For a normal university you need a first class high-school examintation and nothing else. For a special university you need a first or second class high-school exmamination and in both cases you need working experience. The main problem of the dual system is that a student needs apprenticeship job to visit a school inside the dual system. Students unable to find a apprenticeship job could f.e.: - going to university if possible - visiting a full time school but without job qualification. - visiting a full time school but with job qualification. - a very few get a job qualification as a volunteer(Volaentaer)(A typical training for journalist.) - visiting a preparing working programm class f.e. getting a school qualification plus driving licence. - beeing parked in such a programm - if german and male be drafted to military or alternative service. (The german military offers the following jobs: - drafted - drafted-de-luxe(Some extra months and many extra money.) - Zeitsoldat(4-12years) - professional soldiers - go to the police to work as a police man - droping out of school but finding work - dropping out from all BTW: One problem of the german dual education system is job reservation. Some jobs are only for german citizens or for citizens of EU-states. So about 80% of all migrants without german citizenship are excluded from many jobs either by the law or by discrimination. Apprenticeship f.e. for street working (Autobahn!) a very hard dangerous job has only 2% foreigners because the street workers (Strassenmeister) are employed by the state. (Constructing streets is another profession available for foreigners.) Another problem is informal dicrimination. A muslim girl with head scarfs has a low chance to get a job. Unable to speak a clear german gives no chance to get a job. Nonliberal Muslims have big problems to get jobs. Guess all jobs "reserved" for muslims by p.c. are snapped by muslims drinking alcohol at muslim service. (400.000 muslims in Germany are members of a liberal muslim sect...) Achim Ther german system appears to not have the US goal of giving all Americans 12 years + K of an academic education. In the US, 85-90% of americans get 12th grade instead of apprenticeship. > Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 23:12:45 +0100 > From: Hans Franke > To: Arthur Hu > Subject: Re: Apprenticeships and 11th 12th grade > Arthur Hu wrote: > > Can someone reply to me by email at arthurhu@halcyon.com > > and explain how high school after the 10th grade > > works in Japan or Germany? > > To hook on for a serious talk it would be helpful > if you could tell me your level of knowledge about > the German system. > > Servus > Hans > -- > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut. > HRK. > From: "Roland & Christine Wolf" To: Subject: Re: Apprenticeships and 11th 12th grade Date sent: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:32:38 +0100 > What's an abitur, and what is equivalent to the proposed 10th > grade "certificate of mastery" which marks one ready to > go into work or pre-college? The Abitur is the final test at the end of the Gymnasium. The 13th grade is spend mostly preparing for it. You have to pass the test in two subjects that you have chosen for advanced courses, as well as two other subjects. There is some, but only limited choice. You have to take at least one science subject, one language etc. The grades you acchive, as well as your grades from the not-tested subjects are put into a formula giving an average called "Abiturschnitt" (Average of results) and is quite important if you want to study at the University. If you want to study Medicine, for example, your average has to be A- at least. The Abitur is the usual way to gain entry to a University. The Universities themselves rely on the Abitur and do not demand any additional tests. The "Certificate of Mastery" called "Mittlere Reife in Germany is a test performed at the end of the Realschule, i.e. after the 10th grade. The Realschule is shorter and a bit less demanding than the Gymnasium. Generally speaking they stress analytical thinking a bit less, and are more practically oriented. Good students of the Realschule get the chance to change over to the Gymnasium and get their Abitur. The "Mittlere Reife" is not necessary to apply for an appreticeship training, for most apprenticeships the "Hauptschule" is sufficient, at least in theory. The Hauptschule does not have a test at the end of the 9th grade, but simply give the school report as is. The Hauptschule has less and less students each year, many of them the children of immigrants who can`t make the Gymnasium or the Realschule because of language difficulties. There is discussion of disbanding this school completly. There is no pre-collage in Germany. In fact there is no plitting of diplomas into BA and MBA as in the US. If you attend the University you either pass with an MBA-equivalent, or you don`t pass at all. (Do or not do-there is no try ) A student with "Mittlere Reife" and a sucessfull apprenticeship (oh yes-they have tests as well at the end of it) can attend a so-called Fachhochschule, which is a bit hard to translate, but it comes down to "job-oriented University". The Diplomas sound a bit differend, the time to study is shorter, and the curriculum is more practically orientated. Other differences between German and US Schools: - If you receive two bad results in one grade you go back, if necessary involuntarily. - According to a study I read about last year, German Students were worse than their US counterparts in Math and Sports, and better in nearly ethrything else. (It was a US Study) A couple of questions from me: - How do you gain entry to a US University. (I heard about that in `81, but that is very long ago) - How did you get the Idea that apprenticeships were for blue-collar jobs only (Or did I get you wrong there ?) - Is it true that US Schools have courses for getting the driving licence ? - What happened to "bussing" ? Hoping to hear from you. Take care Roland Wolf Germany @@Part 2/4 (25%) Thanks, for your questions.. > From: "Roland & Christine Wolf" > To: > Subject: Re: Apprenticeships and 11th 12th grade > Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:32:38 +0100 > A couple of questions from me: > > - How do you gain entry to a US University. (I heard about that > in `81, but that is very long ago) The best ones require a very high SAT score or that you do pretty good but be an affirmative action minority, level to be determined by whatever it takes to meet a proportional quota. Sounds like the Arbitur is equivalent to our privately-run SAT and ACT tests which most colleges require, in addition to grades and other background info. There is currently no 10th grade level required to continue, but one was proposed initially by Marc Tucker's NCEE, most states have chosen to ignore or delete this provision. The new idea seems to be to either require 12th graders to pass 10th grade level material to graduate, (Washington) or have a separate 12th grade level test and credential (Oregon) New reforms seem to have people convinced that ALL students will perform at levels equal to the best university bound students, but tests so far devised "fail" over half of students who take them with standard set this high. Easier schools admit almost anyone that applies, they complain students must take remedial courses. Nearly 2/3 of Americans continue on to college, but many pay their own way, so government is not limited to the number who can go for "free". Most Americans are limited by ambition, not finances in going to college. > > - How did you get the Idea that apprenticeships were for blue-collar jobs > only (Or did I get you wrong there ?) US School-To-Work admires that Japan and Germany have formal programs for those who are not college bound, over here, that's interpreted as being blue collar workers. The US has vocational colleges for additional post-12th grade training, but expects all that need to read and write to finish 12th grade, many of most who do not graduate end up either in illegal immigrant type jobs, or on welfare, which do not require english literacy skills. What's really strange is that educators here are so enthusiastic about the idea that they are in some states, Oregon and Texas, requiring ALL students, not just the vocational track, to get professional licences and on-the-job training in a real job in order to graduate and continue to college, even though some towns have no possible jobs close to school, and an average car commute between home and their parents job is 30 minutes. (and kids typically don't have cars, not quite yet) > > - Is it true that US Schools have courses for getting the driving licence ? It's called driver's education. In my day, you could take a regular class to learn how to drive, I believe you still can. > > - What happened to "bussing" ? It's fallen out of favor in some places, but almost every city with any kind of a minority population has some sort of desegregation scheme,and it's always a major factor in big city school assignments. In San Francisco, they even put a cap on Chinese at their best high school in the name of "bussing", but Chinese liberal civil rights leaders are supporting this practice. At least the Jews never supported caps on their own group. > > Hoping to hear from you. > > Take care > Roland Wolf > Germany > > From: "Roland & Christine Wolf" To: Subject: Re: Apprenticeships and 11th 12th grade Date sent: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:16:09 +0100 > Easier schools admit almost anyone that applies, they complain > students must take remedial courses. Nearly 2/3 of Americans > continue on to college, but many pay their own way, so government > is not limited to the number who can go for "free". > Since it is still possible to get interesting jobs without collage time, a smaller fraction of the German population studies. The other reason for this is that you either do 4-5 years or you don`t so it at all. Studiing is free in so far that German Universities don`t charge the students for their time, but you have to pay for your normal costs. > > - How did you get the Idea that apprenticeships were for blue-collar jobs > > only (Or did I get you wrong there ?) > > US School-To-Work admires that Japan and Germany have formal > programs for those who are not college bound, over here, that's > interpreted as being blue collar workers. The US has > vocational colleges for additional post-12th grade training, but > expects all that need to read and write to finish 12th grade, > many > of most who do not graduate end up either in illegal immigrant type > jobs, or on welfare, which do not require english literacy skills. Since in Germany Apprenticeship means that you go to school while being a trainee, people who didn`t visit collage aren`t limited to blue collar jobs. In fact, I have made the Abitur, and after my required time in the Army, took an apprenticeship with a wholesaler for building materials, becoming a clerk. The title you receive after your training is "Kaufman im Gross- und Aussenhandel" (Merchant for Wholesale and Im/export, and worked three years as a clerk. Then studied economics at a Fachhochschule. This isnīt an un- common carrear in Germany. Yet, since the "Lehre" provides good training, I know lot of people holding middle management positions having no college time at all. It is simply impossible in Germany to receive the Abitur or the Mittlere Reife while being a functional illiterate. If a studend shows signs of this he/she will receive additional training, and if that doesn`t help will be relegated to a school for handicaped people. Needless to say, his or her chances for an interesting job are close to nil. > > - Is it true that US Schools have courses for getting the driving licence ? > > It's called driver's education. In my day, you could take a > regular class to learn how to drive, I believe you still can. That would have been nice. Driving schools in Germany are private affair, and since the standards are pretty high, a driving licence costs around 3000,- DM. The good news is that it is for life. Take care Roland Wolf Germany thanks, there is a lot of headlines about high school graduates who are functional illiterates, but it all depends on what standard you want to set, the highest level of "math literacy" is at the top 5% of the population, but nearly everyone who graduates can read and write a some level, if not write a college-grade paper. soc.culture.german #143661 (2 + 663 more) (1)--(1)--[1]--[1]--[1] From: hcaltmann@aol.com (HCALTMANN) [1] Re: Apprenticeships and 11th 12th grade Date: Wed Jan 07 16:56:01 PST 1998 Lines: 26 X-Admin: news@aol.com Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com On 6 Jan 1998, Arthur Hu wrote that he wants to know more about the German educational system, in particular about the apprenticeship system. Education in Germany varies from state to state, but not very much. I have a booklet that describes the system used in the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg, It is titled: Vocational Education and Training, published by the Ministerium fuer Kultus und Sport, Postfach 10 34 42, 7000 Stuttgart 10. They sent me a copy several years ago. There was no charge. I am myself a product of the German apprenticeship system and believe that its study would benefit the US educationists. I personally would like to correspond with anyone who wants to seriously discuss the differences, or form a study group. I am myself a product of the German apprenticeship system and believe that its study would benefit the US educationists. I personally would like to correspond with anyone who wants to seriously discuss the differences, or form a study group. The main difference between the systems, in my view, is that the US system wants to treat all students identically, hoping that all will benefit the same and the result will be uniformly excellent. The German or, more properly, the continental European systems, aim at developing each child's abilities to the fullest ("Be all you can be"). This, of necessity, implies that different individual children will have to be treated differently, and they are. The subject is a very deep and broad one and cannot be dealt with in a few simple usenet articles. However, I would be willing to answer specific questions. -- Heinz Well that's funny because Marc Tucker, our Fuhrer of School To Work seeks to have all students perform at the same level with no tracking by emulating the German system. This is not surprising since Tucker has basically tied together many incompatible and disparate buzzwords and stirred them together to make a witches brew of reforms that don't make sense when you start to take it apart instead of buying into it at face value. US reform has the motto "all children will succeed and perform at the highest levels". Wish us luck and God's mercy. From: Jacob@Proffitt.XXnospamXX.com (Jacob + Proffitt) [1] Re: Apprenticeships and 11th 12th grade Date: Thu Jan 08 10:04:43 PST 1998 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 55 I was only in Germany for two years, and not as a student, so my observations are inherently limited. However, for what it's worth, I'm not a big fan of it as I understand it. I'm all for the varying emphases represented by the German educational system. I like that the attempt is made to help each at their best level of ability. It's a good idea. My problem with it is in the inherent inelasticity of it. You take the test at age 12 and that, along with teacher recommendation pretty much determines the course of your life. How many of us can say that the full potential of our lives was evident at age 12? Once that vocational determination is made, it's pretty rare to switch emphasis (and a bureaucratic mess to even try). The apprenticeship later on is also a tool that, while it ensures a certain level of competence and understanding, also introduces a great deal of inelasticity. You work at what you were trained at and if you wish to switch careers, you have to start pretty much from scratch. That means the job market cannot react swiftly to changes in specialized demand. It also means that a less capable worker who has seniority will take precedence over a more capable worker who doesn't. On the one hand, it is more secure for the worker once he knows he has seniority. But you pay for that with the inability to shift resources to the most useful sector or to optimize your work force within an industry (or even corporation). I prefer the flexibility of the current (admittedly flawed) U.S. system. Likely because I am in the unique position of having a University degree in English, yet I work in the computer industry because that's where I can make money. Something I probably couldn't have pulled off in Germany. Now, if you wanted a hybrid I would like, you can have the German emphasis of tailoring things to the over-all level of the child (i.e. different levels of academic vigor), and add in the U.S. flexibility of allowing a person to determine themselves where they fit into that hierarchy. This would work best if you could vary the levels by subject. i.e. somebody be in 4th level, doctoral studies type math classes at the same time they are in remedial 1st level History. 'Course, then you have to allow individuals to determine which classes or apprenticeships to take and that is a level of control that Germany doesn't want to give up. 'Course, admitting that people have differing ability levels is a cherished notion that would likely be difficult for the U.S. to abandon. I'm not running things in either country and likely never will . . . Jacob soc.culture.german #143746 (0 + 663 more) (1)--(1)--(1)--(1)--[1] From: Hans Franke [1] Re: Apprenticeships and 11th 12th grade Date: Thu Jan 08 15:12:10 PST 1998 Organization: Siemens Business Services Lines: 126 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 [de] (WinNT; I) Hmm, maybe you didn't notice the inherit flexibility of the mulit columne system in Germany ? It is always possible to switch betrween different ways. Especialy later on. The tests at the 5th, 6th or 7th grade - depending on the type of school you want to take are _only_ the usual, 'Mainstream' way. You could always switch later on again if you pass the test for the same grade on the other school or one grade below to repeat the same grade on the 'higher' school. Or switch after finishing one scool. Even after finishing an apprenticeship there are several ways to follow for more education. In a booklet from the Bavarian education department I found more than 15 diferent ways to qualify for a university. Shure, if one is not willing to look for education, nobody will force him to recive any degree above the minimum. > The apprenticeship later on is also a tool that, while it ensures a > certain level of competence and understanding, also introduces a great deal > of inelasticity. You work at what you were trained at and if you wish to > switch careers, you have to start pretty much from scratch. Isn't it the same in the everywhere ? New Job, new challenge. But it's a difference if one has learned ONE thing realy, he has also learned a lot about working et all, and he enters a new job, even without a new apprenticeship (this ocures _very_ seldom) on a reasonably higher level. > That means the Not slower as everywhere else. No enerpreteur would stop his business only if there are no 'right' trained workers to employ. Think about als these programmers from the early 70's, when the demand was bigger than the supply ? Every Al Bundy in Germany (or at least a lot of them) switched :) > It also > means that a less capable worker who has seniority will take precedence over > a more capable worker who doesn't. Complete different thing, and as far, as I found thru my life it is complete the other way: In companies, where jobs are based on regular apprenticeship or on a comperable engineer degree the hirarchy will be based on th knowledge - only in 'modern' style business, like computer sales (did I say that all horse sales man have converted shoe sales and later on to computers ?), where everyone likes to be a 'manager' knowlede is reziprocal to the position. > On the one hand, it is more secure for > the worker Security is a different thing - but again no busines no job, and busines == job - Same in Germany than everywhere in the world. > I prefer the > flexibility of the current (admittedly flawed) U.S. system. Likely because > I am in the unique position of having a University degree in English, yet I > work in the computer industry because that's where I can make money. > Something I probably couldn't have pulled off in Germany. Do you think so ? Lets take myself as an Example: I had only basic school - I was lazy as lazy could be (I'm still lazy, thats why I work with computers :) - so I only did Hauptschule which is the lowes grade of school, and one could exit after just 9 years. Eventualy I took an apprenticeship as electician - putting electrical outlets into walls and changing bulps - big deal, isn't it ? But right after ending my apprenticeship with an degree, I switched to mainframe computer maintanance, and again, after just one year, (plus 15 month of army service) I switched again for mainframe programming. And so on ... Several changes later I earn, still as a company employee, something like 150,000 DM a year (I'm single, so Waigl gets the biggest part :). Thats a bit above average - even above a lot of people in the same age with university degrees ... so where is your point ? My story seems to be unusual, and everybody will tell you so at first sight, but if you look below the surface you find a lot of such stories. The ways in Germany arn't so fixed as one thinks. (Sometimes it's just a way to avoide thinking about the ongoing change) In fact, as far as I have seen different coutries, I think they differ only a bit e.g. from the US. We just don't have a culture of hypenating the change. Soooo, a lot of bits wasted .... Gruss H. Soooo, a lot of bits wasted .... Gruss H. P.S.: Put any typo on my low school level (and my spoken english is even more worse:) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut. HRK. @@Part 3/4 50% From: "Hans Franke" Organization: SIEMENS AG To: arthurhu@halcyon.com Date sent: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 03:54:45 +1 Subject: Re: Apprenticeships and 11th 12th grade Priority: normal > Ther german system appears to not have the US goal of > giving all Americans 12 years + K of an academic education. > In the US, 85-90% of americans get 12th grade instead of > apprenticeship. Uff. A lot of stuff to tell ... First, as one already in the Newsgroup said, it's not about giving every one the same, it's givng everyone the best fitting education. (althroug it has quirks :) Practicly the schoolsystem is _COMPLEETLY_ different from US Im explaining the Bavarian system, but dthe other Laender are similar. first a graph to show what I'm talking: ,----------, 13 I Abitur I 12 I I ,----------,I I 11 I M.R. II I 10 I II GymnasiumI ,----------,I II I 9 I Qual. II Real- II I 8 I II schule II I 7 I II II I I II II I I ''==========II I 6 I II I I ''==========I 5 I Hauptschule I I==================================I 4 I I 3 I Grundschule I 2 I I 1 I I '----------------------------------' Only until 5th grade eveyone visits the same school. Grade one thru 4 are called Grundschule - Elementary School. Above 4th grade its the Hauptschule (Main School). After the 5th you could take a test and switch to the Gymnasium. The Gymnasium leads to the Abitur degree that could be compared to a collaege degree. The Abitur is also the entry level (test) for studing at an University without any limitation. If you don't take the test, or you dont pass, you could try it again after 6th grade to switch for the Gymnasium, or try the test for the Realschule. The Realschule is the middle colume of our school system (remember, the University is not seen as regular part of the school) and leeds to a degree called Mittlere Reife which entitles the sudent to go for special busines orientated universities. Or he could switch for the last two year to the Gymnasium and try to make his Abitur. Again, if you dont take the test, od fail, you have again a (regular) cance after the 7th grade to switch from Hauptschule to the Realschule. If he stays at the Hauptschule he could finish with an 'Qualifizierter Hauptschulabschluss' (Qualified Main School degree) and try again to switch to the Realschule. Beside these regulat points to switch between the school types, every studend could alway switch without a test to the 'lower' type of school, or with an extra test to the higer grade - but this ocures only seldom, because switching outside of the regular points is very hard, since the lerning matter ist very different between the school types. It is possible to quit school after 9th grade but without any degree. The main reason for the different columes are the goals of the school - the Hauptschule should entitle the studends for practicle Jobs , the Realschule leads the students toward management Jobs, and the Gymnasium shloud bring them toward university and science. Or to get it simle - Workers, Managers, Scientists - but thats very simple and sarcastic. After school everone could take an apprenticeship. Most Hauptschul students and Realschul students will do so, but even some Gymnasium studens take one before they go to the university. If you have a finished apprenticeship and a university diploma you coud get almost every job you want - but it's also the longest way do finish :) Apprenticeship is ALWAYS at a company - never at school, altrough some big companies have organized their 'lessons' almost like school. If you have a hauptschul diploma and a finished apprenticeship you are entitled to go for limited (tecnical/busines) universities, like having a Mittlere Reife (Realschool diploma). After apprenticeship we are entering an vast area of possible ways to get higher education - starting from adult evening school (the hardest way of all) while working, and ending by going back to regular school .... including making higher degrees at work, like bekomming a Meister (english 'master' but thats not like the several master degrees at your universities). If you like to know more - tell me - it is stating to become realy late ...I'm tired :) Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK Date sent: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 04:54:52 -0500 To: arthurhu@halcyon.com (Arthur Hu) From: jpink90919@aol.com (JPink90919) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Apprenticeships and 11th 12th grade > while I understand that >most Japanese and Germans have to take a test to >go on to college, and those that don't hack it >have to spend 11th and 12th grade tightening bolts >instead, and the US wants to institute school-to- >work to emulate countries that are actually behind >the US in terms of education level. > >Can someone reply to me by email at arthurhu@halcyon.com >and explain how high school after the 10th grade >works in Japan or Germany? Arthur, I am not going to go into great depth, but I know a little about high school in both Germany and Japan. In both countries, what a student is doing in the 11th and 12th years is decided by what they have done in the past. There is no real change at that point. In Germany students' paths begin in elementary school. Each successive school has requirements which can only be met by being in the right track at the previous school. If a student does not get into a gymnasium (the college prep level of high school) prep program in junior high, they are not going to have the preparation in mathematics and languages that the Gymnasium requires. Then they end up in Realschule (the non-classical version of high school, for students not planning on college). I believe within the Realshcule there are different paths, like for students who will train to become bookkeepers, or those who will go into nursing, or maybe those who will become auto mechanics or some sort of manual laborer. (It has been a while since I have been acquainted with German schooling, so some of this may be a little sketchy). But if they are not going to go to college, the idea is they get some sort of solid training before they leave school. In Japan, at each level of school, starting with elementary, students take tests to see what level of school they will attend. It is especially important to get into a good junior high, or the preparation for the high school entrance exams will not be sufficient to get into a good academic high school which will prepare students for the college entrance exam. Like Germany, once a student is entering the 11th year, their path is already long decided. If they are in an academic high school, they will take the university entrance exams and get into the most prestigious school possible, where they will coast for 4 years. Students from technical schools may go to lesser colleges, or enter a company, which will train them in some field. Students at agricultural high schools, I have no idea what they really do. I guess some become farmers. In my opinion, having lived in both Japan and Germany, my opinion is that Japanese, on average, are better educated than the average American. I would say that the average German is at least as well educated, at least through the high school level, and if they are not going to college, they finish school with far more marketable skills than their American counterparts. If you have more specific questions, or would like to discuss this issue further, feel free to email me. John From: "Regnier, Paul (Burkholder)" To: sleeper@warwick.net Copies to: education-consumers@tricon.net Subject: RE: Question about foreign language classes Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:48:01 -0500 The key word in your response is "dictates." In fact, German parents and students have pretty open choice as to which tracks their kids take and which professions they pursue. There is also a fair amount of cross-over from one track to another even after the initial commitment. At this point, I would say that there is no more "dictation" of what a kid will study in Germany than there was in the US 20 years ago. As in the US, kids choose themselves or are advised by teachers or parents to choose the academic or other track, and much of the choice devolves down to following one's parents' economic class. However, in both countries there are many examples in which working-class kids choose and are successful in academic tracks. In any case, most of the kids in the NON-academic German tracks are better educated (especially in math and science) than the average US high school grad. I know that school-to-work in the US is a right-wing bugaboo, but I think the US would be very well served by a system more similar to the German. It is the major reason they have probably the best and highest paid labor force in the world, a labor force that has brought their country from the ruin of WW II to being one of the top 3 economies in the world. Business, labor, and government are all involved with the schools in the program. It is a big mistake to look on this as some kind of Big Brother dictatorial program. -----Original Message----- From: sleeper@warwick.net [SMTP:sleeper@warwick.net] Sent: Thursday, January 15, 1998 5:24 PM To: Regnier, Paul (Burkholder) Cc: education-consumers@tricon.net Subject: Re: Question about foreign language classes Dear Paul: Don't take this the wrong way but the last part of your statement I must disagree with. Notice I only spoke about their ACADEMIC STANDARDS? Notice I did not go further then 6th Grade? That is because they also have School-to-work, by a different name, but still the same. They also have mandatory enlistment within the military for all males 18 years old. I do not agree with this system. This system is controled by the German Government which dictates what, when, where they will learn, the most need at that time, 'labor aquasition skills', through 'certificates' of accomplishments through their 'school' education. Last I heard our government has not declared, outright, itself a Democratic/Socialistic form of government. By combining Education, Labor, Health, and Economic Development all throught our children's school, tell me just what type of representative government we will our children learn about and will we as americans have? Sincerely yours, Sleeper Regnier, Paul (Burkholder) wrote: > > This is an excellent example of high expectations/high achievement > education in a schooling system with FAR greater government control than > in the US. It is NOT government control, but the ideas on which the > curriculum and education system are based (read Hirsch's latest book) > that makes the difference. From: "Regnier, Paul (Burkholder)" To: arthurhu@halcyon.com, sleeper@warwick.net Copies to: education-consumers@tricon.net Subject: RE: Question about foreign language classes Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:29:58 -0500 "Going to college" is a red herring. Very few US high school grads could meet the standard for going to university in Germany. The % has been estimated, based on national testing in the US and the Abitur (exam required for entering college in Germany) at about 5% -- vs. c. 30% in Germany. Anyone with any kind of high school diploma (and many without) and the money (from whatever source) to pay tuition can get into some 4-year college in the US. Many many of those who do NOT go to college in Germany are better educated than those with some college in the US (What % GRADUATES from a 4-year copllege?) -----Original Message----- From: Arthur Hu [SMTP:arthurhu@mail1.halcyon.com] Sent: Friday, January 16, 1998 8:09 AM To: sleeper@warwick.net; Regnier, Paul (Burkholder) Cc: education-consumers@tricon.net Subject: RE: Question about foreign language classes Not completely true, the tests largely determine who goes into what track, Germany sends only half as many students to college as the US (over 2/3 continue on to college here), nearly all (over 80%) complete 12 years of academic education, in Germany, those who don't go to college have to work most of 11th and 12th grade, and when you say Germany is one of the top 3, you don't mention that the US has the #1 economy, and utterly dominates the high tech fields of aerospace, entertainment, and computers. I'm sick of people like Marc Tucker slamming the US education system and worshipping a system that sends fewer people to college, and has a much worse tracking system than the US. Marc Tucker's CIM as originally proposed in 1992 (I've posted the original proposal to Hillary Clinton on the web) would not permit taking 11th and 12th grade courses unless the CIM was passed, as most of these tests and standards have been formulated, typically fewer than half of the population can meet these standards. Fortunately, no state that I have heard of has implemented this radical feature, and it appears that much of his old "coalition" has jumped ship since 1992. (Vermont, Washington at least) @@Part 4/4 75% Well, again, we get into differnces between skills as measured on tests, and number of years spent in education, but at least in years of education, we're way ahead. About 25% complete 4 years of education, and that's still double any other nation except Canada, and that's one of the best kept secrets since nobody ever wants to hear that the US is doing better than its rivals, we're always going to hell in a handbasket, and they won't hear it any other way. Germans may be well trained to work in MBenz but in the US those kinds of jobs isn't where the growth is, and it's probably better to get a broad education to fit into whatever job slots open up. Not that some apprentice ship programs might not be a bad idea, but it's madness to just take this buzzword and say that more of it must be good for everybody, even the college bound kids, which is where many states and federal laws are taking it. From: sleeper@warwick.net Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 00:01:53 -0800 Send reply to: sleeper@warwick.net To: arthurhu@halcyon.com Subject: Re: Question about foreign language classes Dear Arthur: I tried to send you something but I received this in reply so I am trying again. ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- (expanded from: ) This is the list of people that I sent these to. pregnier@BURKHOLDER.FCPS.k12.va.us LScheffers@aol.com, Gardner@smtp.nvg.com, Arthur.Hu@halcyon.com I broke it up into 2 parts for this resubmission to you. They are replys to Paul's messages. By the way, thanks. Sincerely yours, Sleeper *********************************************************************** Part 1 Dear Paul, et al: Please see my comments between. Also notic that I have taken this off-list so as to lighten the lode on the Education Consumers Clearinghouse list. Sincerely yours, Sleeper Regnier, Paul (Burkholder) wrote: > > The key word in your response is "dictates." In fact, German parents and > students have pretty open choice as to which tracks their kids take and > which professions they pursue. There is also a fair amount of cross-over > from one track to another even after the initial commitment. At this > point, I would say that there is no more "dictation" of what a kid will > study in Germany than there was in the US 20 years ago. I disagree with you here. Yes they do have 'choices', but these 'choices' are assigned based on their 'academic achievements and capabilities' and the communities needs. The difference in this country is that even if, as a school student you did poorly, you knew that further down the line you could go back, and get a degree in 'any' subject that you wished to pursue as long as you applied yourself. If that program is implemented in this country the effects on the american populus will be devastating. In our public schools (not all I will grant you, but the numbers are growing) academic achievement in the 3R's is no longer considered of utmost importance. For easy confirmation just look at how many schools have/are/will remove(ed), for whatevery reasons, their 'gifted/advanced/enrichment' classess. Our own DOE is pushing(through the 9 regional labortories) progressive based, philosophy based, facilitated, group learning clusters in earier grades. This in total opposition to all research that has been accumulated since the early 1900's and that they not only have access too but in some cases have instigated. The school-to-work opportunity act itself puts job/career training/recogonition/mentoring/shadowing, for LOCAL economic develpment, BEFORE acquasition of 'higher' academic learning. For people living in very rural areas this advocating of 'local' will LIMIT their choices, for no other reason then the LACK OF CHOICE within their LOCAL area. The DOE cannot properly, academically educate our children in this country today. You can give whatever reason you want for their lack of ability to accomplish this. Blame whoever you want. But the facts are that most of our children are not receiving an academic education in this country at this time. Can you honestly tell me that you think that they(DOE) would be able to handle a combining of these two disiplines(education and labor training) and pull it off in the best, most efficient, geared towards enhancement and development of our children's abilities to learn academics and job training? when they cannot even get the academics part straight yet after 37 years of trying? > As in the US, > kids choose themselves or are advised by teachers or parents to choose > the academic or other track, and much of the choice devolves down to > following one's parents' economic class. Not always. It also devolves down to just what type of 'track' your community offers in the way of choice. Where I live my childrens 'choice' will revolve around: Agraculture, Farming, Fast Food Service, and store clerk. Also in area where as you say: "choice devolves down to following one's parents' economic class.", like New York City? At least they have the option of getting their kids into 'magnet' schools that are concentrating on ACADEMICS. I do not even have that 'choice' where I live. > However, in both countries > there are many examples in which working-class kids choose and are > successful in academic tracks. In any case, most of the kids in the > NON-academic German tracks are better educated (especially in math and > science) than the average US high school grad. That is because it is 'expected' of them by their Teachers, schools, and parents. 'High standards' and 'high expectations' are the norm there and expected of EVERY student, they are not only 'placed' in 'magnet', private, or 'special circumstances schools, like it is in this country. > > I know that school-to-work in the US is a right-wing bugaboo, but I > think the US would be very well served by a system more similar to the > German. I disagree. One, I totally disagree with the philosophy that it was based on. Two, I totally disagree with the 'collection of student and family data' that this system MANDATES (through the Graduation Portfolios) in the name of 'simplisity'. Have you read a copy of the 'Student Data Handbook' and just what type of information it 'require'? If not, and if it is coming to your school, may I recommend that you ask for a copy of: the 'manual' for implementation of the Graduation Portfolio System, a list of ALL governmental and nongovernmental 'agencies' that will have access to EACH students records and under 'what reasons' allowable, a list of the 'data requirements' for EACH students records, and the name of the organization that will 'oversee' the national data-bank retreval service. Then come back and tell me that this should ONLY be the concern of, as you call them, "right-wing bugaboo". For a good book on the constitution, the changes within this document, and democracy itself may I suggest "Democracy in the United States". Unfortunately most people that do research in education and labor along with checking on legislations, realize just how far our form of government has changed, they start shouting Big Brother and siteing George Orwells "1984". This book has lost any 'respect' due to the fact that 1984 came and went, so hence it 'can' never happen. A better book for a prelude to what 'May' happen if current 'changes and reforms' continue and showing how they take place in a step by step manner (the book is very well thought out and detailed in which steps were need when and feed 'acceptable' to the people in which way) may I suggest: "Devils Advocate", the 1950's printing by Taylor Cadwell and not the later versions by Thomas Clancy, etc.. as they are totally different stories. I myself just happen to have 'read up on' my history dealing with WWII. (May I suggest "The Rise and Fall of Hitler", (it can be found at your local library or amazon.com on the web, pretty good price to) I 'learned' why and how Hilter was able to 'take over/convert and use' the german people and their 'need' for 'safety'. One of the first things he did was to combine Education, Labor, Health services, Economics, and Labor under a banner of 'child protection, child safety, child improvement, child workskills development, all administred through the 'public school system' and new national programs at that time. He was so good at it that he was able to have the children 'snitch' on their own parents/families. Sound familure? Read some of the posts about the surveys children in public schools are now asked to complete under the guise of 'Critical Thinking Skills Worksheets' or 'Journal Entries'. I know, I am looking at one right now that my daughter brought home from school. It is suppose to be 'about' a book called: "Help! I'm a Prisoner in the library!" It is labled at the bottom; 'Literature and Critical Thinking' The directions read: Could these things happen to you? Write yes or no next to each one. Here are the questions: 1. Your mother is going to have a baby. 2. Your father is driving and runs out of gas. 3. You have to go to the bathroom and just can't wait. 4. You get intersted in a library display. 5. You hear a mynah bird talk. 6. You hear noises that frighten you. 7. You explore something new, even though it might be dangerous. 8. You help an injured person because you know some first aid. 9. You eat food from someone's refrigerator without asking. 10. You rescue a cat from a place it is trapped. 11. You like looking at storybook characters. 12. You have an idea that could make someone's future very happy. Look up and read the title of the book again. Now tell me just what the worksheet developer was thinking when he choose these questions? #'s 1, 2, 3, 8, 9, 12, and 7(read the wording of this question very carefully) Seeing as how this is a yes or no answer response sheet show me where any 'critical thinking skills are being imployed? Seven out of 12(more then half) of the questions are geared towards my daughters opinions and/or OUR personal, private lives. You can take these questions innocently or you can take them with a bit of skeptisism, especial after finding out just what type of student & family data information is required to go into her gaduation portfolio. "right-wing bugaboo" or valid concern? If you know anyone that deals with psychological behavioural studies and surveys, copy this 'homework' assignment and see what they say about the questions, the wording of the questions, and the questions validity in regards to the subject book and its relationship to 'critical thinking skills. I am going to, how about you? or are you afraid of what you might hear? I am not a kook, I am not overreacting, my 2 daughters bring home assignments like this(This is tame) or even worse(for 'skills' class my other daughter had to 'chart' her families emotions, type of situation that the emotional response dealt with, in ALL situations for a 24 hour period, 30 minute intervals, and then list her feelings at those times.) at least 3 times a week. "right-wing bugaboo" or valid concern? > It is the major reason they have probably the best and highest > paid labor force in the world, Their labor force in so 'highly paid' that they are approaching serious economic problems right now. > a labor force that has brought their > country from the ruin of WW II to being one of the top 3 economies in > the world. You need to update your information. May I suggest that you go read the german newspapers. They have english translations through newsservices. Just 'search' the newspapers and find one you like. Business, labor, and government are all involved with the > schools in the program. That is why they are having a problem right now. There are people in that country holding '3, 4, 5, even more' work certificates, yet they cannot get a job. All their certificates are useless. They are again required(by the fact that they cannot hold a job without proper certification for that job) to go back for 'retraining' in a field that will be over-run or obsolete by the time that they are 'retrained' and certified. It has become an endless cycle that is destroying the economy especially since the berlin wall came down. It is a big mistake to look on this as some > kind of Big Brother dictatorial program. No, it is a big mistake to not look on this as some kind of big brother dictatorial program. It is because we no longer keep ourselves involved in governmental affairs, laws, acts, executive decisions,etc.. that are being written, proposed, and signed at the state and national levels that we are in this mess. It is most americans lack of their individual responsibility in ensuring a republican form of goverence that we are now in jepordy of losing it. Our government is filled with 'life long learners' that have corrupted our system of government for nothing more then money. They will sign off on any piece of legislation, no matter how damaging to our constitution and or bill of rights, as long as they are assured of receiving their monentary share of the taxpayers money or corperation handout. Just watch the news and hear which new appointed, voted in, or contracted governmental/non-governmental official is under investigation for whatever. > Before you send me a reply go to the library of congress and check out some of the legislation in regards to education and labor. READ some of them. Find out just how tightly the strings are being pulled underneath one major governmental agency which will have controll over ever facet of your rights, your childrens rights under the names: education, health care, and labor. Go to the Government approved Department of Education, Department of Labor, Department of Health and Human Services, the 9 Regional Education Labortories Websites and READ what they have written in their own words. Find the documentation that they are basing all these 'new' reforms, changes, legislations, etc.. on. I have spect 4 years of my life doing this. Now it is your turn. I will not send you the links you can find these sites very easily on your own. Besides what ever I send you, you will consider it 'tainted' with my political/educational ideology. There are many people that have been researching these issues for a very long time(makes me look like a infant in comparision to what they have uncovered). It is just that whenever we try to tell people they refuse to even consider checking out what we are talking about. They consistantly state that we ALL are 'right-wing conservatives', 'christian coalition religious nuts', militia members, or just plain kooks and nuts! For the record I'm neither a right-wing anything, conservative anything, militia member, and last I new I have not been certified as insane. I just consider myself an American First everything else is secondary. I believe in the constitution. I believe in the writings of our founding fathers and the premise they where written on. I believe in the Magna Carter. Does that make me a 'kook'? Sincerely yours, Sleeper ******************************************************************** Part 2 Regnier, Paul (Burkholder) wrote: > > "Going to college" is a red herring. No it is not a red herring. It is the ability to receive and educate yourself at a 'higher academic level'. It is the ability to become a 'well rounded' academically intelligent citizen with the ability to preform their duties, based on information that you have learned in your pursuit of higher knowledge, to the republican form of government that this country was built on. It is the ABILITY to go to college at any age. It is the ability to go to college when you decide you are ready. It is the ABILITY to go to college without first having to serve in the military. > Very few US high school grads could > meet the standard for going to university in Germany. That says something about OUR country's LACK of academic achievment due to our country's LACK of academic standards and expectations of the public schools themselves, their elementary teachers knowledge levels of subject matter, and standards and expectations of the children themselves within the public school systems. > The % has been > estimated, based on national testing in the US and the Abitur (exam > required for entering college in Germany) at about 5% -- vs. c. 30% in > Germany. Anyone with any kind of high school diploma (and many without) > and the money (from whatever source) to pay tuition can get into some > 4-year college in the US. Sorry but I consider this one of the GREAT benefits of living in this country. The ability to pursue a college education no matter what your previous circumstances where. > Many many of those who do NOT go to college in > Germany are better educated than those with some college in the US Again I site the same reasons as above. LACK of expectations, etc..., But then Bill Gates did quit college did he not? But he did have a choice, did he not? What would have happened to him in Germany? He would have been forced to put in for 'retraining' in some sort of field so he could get a job. Not here. Here he just started his own company and viola. Micosoft was born. > (What % GRADUATES from a 4-year copllege?) I do not have those stat's. But you can bet that one of the reasons that they did not graduate was because of a LACK of proper teaching. Lack of enough of a fundamental basic academic knowledge base to work from. But, at least they had the chance to try. Sincerely yours, Sleeper > Here's a quick quiz to see if you're all paying attention G=Germany U=USA Which nation has the world's largest GNP G,U!? Which nation has the world's nearly highest living standard? G,U!? Which nation dominates the world in sofware G, U!? Which nation dominates the world in personal and mainframe computers G,U!? Which nation sells and produces more automobiles across the globe? G,U!? Which nation dominates the world in military and commercial aircraft? G,U!? Which nation has the most efficient system of retail distribution? G,U! Which nation feeds the world? G,U! Which nation dominates the world in space G, U!? Which nation sends twice as many students to college, and graduates twice as many with 4 year degrees as any other major industriaized nation G, U!? Which nation has the lowest rate of unemployement G, U!? Which nation dominates the world entertainment film and music business G,U!? Which nation trains its children best for employment in the 21st Century (this is the tough one!) G, U!? Which nation seeks to require vocational training for all students, starting in Kindergarten, and including the college bound? G,U!? Anybody care to quibble about the answers? Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:40:16 -0800 From: Bruce Crawford To: LScheffers Copies to: education-consumers@tricon.net Subject: Re: STW (Was: Question about foreign language classes) OK gang, I've been trying to sit this one out, as I overuse my quota anyway. Two quick points. One, the German vocational system is a bust. I'll post an article out of the LA Times from a few months ago by one of their European reporters. Rhetorical question - If it was working so well, why do they have 12% unemployment? You'll get an idea after you read the article. Two, our vocational system is already broken, and it is still small scale stuff. Over the past couple of years, three major reviews of JTPA have been done. One by the GAO, one by an independent group known as Abt Research, and the last by their very own Dept. of Labor. All three show that it is an abject failure. JTPA products do worse than their peers who have no contact with the program. JTPA is now in its third incarnation, so it's not like they're having start-up and learning curve problems. It's a socially bankrupt concept. In short, STW will never fly. Heck, it won't even be able to take off, I don't care how many feet of runway you give it. BC LScheffers wrote: > > In a message dated 98-01-16 13:48:16 EST, you write: > > << I know that school-to-work in the US is a right-wing bugaboo, but I > think the US would be very well served by a system more similar to the > German. >> > > NO, NO, NO! > > School is about becoming a literate adult along the lines of E.D. Hirsch's > "Cultural Literacy". I am now on my fifth career; this one's in data > processing - this career option wasn't a "glint in the eye" during my high > school years. However, with my excellent liberal arts education I can change > majors to support different careers with 4-5 college courses (I have four > college degrees, including a M.Ed./Elementary Education and an M.B.A. from > UCLA). > > If you change the entire concept of K-12 public education to vocational > education and specific skills development, the skills and jobs will be > obsolete before the students get out of high school (aside from the fact that > the apprenticeships are for local businesses, when our population is extremely > mobile). > > Although the words "ability to learn" have been truly bastardized in > edubabble, a liberal arts education gives a framework which allows most > specific job skills to be learned easily. How impressed would you be, if you > mentioned "Europe" and a STW graduate asked, "What's that? Wait a minute, > while I look it up on my computer-" > > And I'm not a right-winger, at all! (FYI, in education, concerns are going > across traditional party lines - you might find that a more valid distinction > is those, mostly educators, who prefer the progressive education concepts vs. > those, mostly parents of students, who prefer more traditional instructional > methodologies.) > > BTW, I note that you're posting from a K-12 education account. Do you have > any idea how much your job responsibilities are likely to change, if STW gets > a stong foothold in your school system? Who needs teachers beyond consumer > math, who needs history teachers, how many jobs really require even a minimal > science understanding, who needs fine arts classes, etc., etc. I hope you > know how to teach computer classes or auto mechanics:) > > Lauren > EDUCATION CONSUMERS CLEARINGHOUSE EDUCATION CONSUMERS CLEARINGHOUSE I think we've got a system that's 100% gymnasium, almost everyone shoots for college these days, over half actually start. However, now that some districts are implementing tests to make sure students are performing at some "proficiency" level, Chicago is starting high schools for students who can't hack it at the 30th percentile level or better. That looks a lot like a Hauptschule to me. I think the US system is a better fit for US values, the reform idea of a 10th degree Certificate of Mastery for all students seems to be bastardization of the german model. > From: "Roland & Christine Wolf" > To: > Subject: Re: What % go to each type of high school > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:09:31 +0100 > > > ---------- > > Forgot to ask about what % of kids to go each > > type of high school. Is there a federal > > education page that has these statistics for > > Germany? > > > > By the way, was East Germany similar in its > > system, or different, and has it all changed > > over? > > Up to 50 % of all Kids visit the Gymnasium these > days, which is a bit much. Realschule takes 35% > rest is Hauptschule. There is current discussion > to disband the Hauptschule, but I do not think it`ll > happen. > In the old GDR there was no Hauptschule, and you > took Abitur at the end of the 12th Grade. In order to > ae equal chances for the Abitur Graduates, they changed > over the GDR system. > > BTW, after all the info, how do you like the German system > and hwo do you think it stacks up to the US one ? > > Hope that helps, > Roland Wolf > Germany > > From: "Roland & Christine Wolf" To: Subject: Re: 10th grade certificate Date sent: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:03:32 +0100 > Question - do the Gymnasium students have to > get a realshule certificate? The US plan is to > have ALL 12th graders or 10th graders take a 10th > grade level test, regardless of whether they plan > to work or go to college after high school. Theoritically any 10th-grader who quits Gymnasium after the 10th has the Mittlere Reife, even without passing the exam. His grades for the 10th are written down. One has to know that this is extremly rare. If you can`t hack it on the Gymnasium you get relegated to the Realschule much earlier. Since everybody knows that employers take a dim view on Gymnasium dropouts, students tend to carry on after the 10th grade. BTW, after the 10th the Gymnasium is quite a different place. Before the 11th everybody is in his class and learns all subjects. After the 10th you get to pick sucjects, so there is no longer a class system. A bit more like University. Hope that helps, Roland Wolf Now THAT's interesting. In the US, you get to pick your courses even in middle school, which starts at the 6th grade. My state, Washington is proposing a 10th grade level test, but it will only be required for graduating from the 12th grade. What you are telling me is that in the Gymnasium, college-track high school, is that they don't require what we are proposing as the CIM at any grade. Instead, they get the Arbitur, which is like our SAT/ACT, which is required by almost every university. Many cites and states are instituting tests at every grade level, if you do not pass whatever local or state officials to be a "proficient" level, you do not advance to the next grade. That means that Marc Tucker, the architect of the Certificate of Mastery, has seriously misunderstood the concept of the German system, and that Washington, Oregon, and every other state that is considering his model of "school to work" and CIM aren't following Germany at all, but are chasing a system that makes no sense in either country. There is no need to make college-bound students take a 10th grade certificate of mastery, nor attach a test score to their diploma, since the SAT or ACT accomplishes this. A 10th grade certificate only makes sense for work-track high schools where students only complete 10 grades of education, and spend 11th and 12th grade in apprenticeship. In the US, "School To Work" proposes that children as early as Kindergarten spend time worrying about work-related activities and picking a labor specialty, and spend classroom time "working" at places like Volkswagen dealerships instead of the traditional view that students would be better off with 12 years of academic education for most jobs, and currently, we have nothing equivalent to "apprenticeship", when you start a job, they train whatever special skills you might need, unless it requires college study, in which case they ask for a degree or equivalent experience. When you work, it is under full pay, and any employer can hire any worker without having to go through the local high schools, my understanding is that in Germany, you are not permitted to hire students directly. Under the US system, 90% of students complete 12 years of academic education, 60% complete 1 or 2 years of college, 25% complete 4 or more years of college. It appears that in Germany, fewer than 50% of students complete 12 years of education, only 30%-40% start college, and only about 12% complete 4 years (my statistics show US college rates are about double Germany's at every level) Black Americans graduate from high school at about the same rate as whites, go to 1-2 years of college at nearly the same rates, and graduate from 4-yr universities at about the same rate as Germans. I thank you very much, you have helped complete the picture of what I suspected were some serious misconceptions we Americans have about how much "better" Germany is in "preparing workers for the 21st Century" than America. In my opinion, the USA is really the nation that is ahead and, if you excuse my patriotism, Americans don't appreciate the fact that companies like Microsoft, Intel, IBM, and Boeing dominate the world in a way that few German or Japanese corporations can claim. They believe people like Marc Tucker who believe that the US will fail in competition with Germany and Japan unless it adopts his idea of a 10th grade CIM. How do the Germans feel how they compare? Are their Germans who say that "we must catch up to the Americans", or are they confident that their system is superior? Does Germany have a man like Marc Tucker who says that education must be "re-invented"? > From: "Roland & Christine Wolf" > To: > Subject: Re: 10th grade certificate > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:03:32 +0100 > > > > Question - do the Gymnasium students have to > > get a realshule certificate? The US plan is to > > have ALL 12th graders or 10th graders take a 10th > > grade level test, regardless of whether they plan > > to work or go to college after high school. > > Theoritically any 10th-grader who quits Gymnasium > after the 10th has the Mittlere Reife, even without > passing the exam. His grades for the 10th are written > down. One has to know that this is extremly rare. > If you can`t hack it on the Gymnasium you get relegated > to the Realschule much earlier. Since everybody knows > that employers take a dim view on Gymnasium dropouts, > students tend to carry on after the 10th grade. > BTW, after the 10th the Gymnasium is quite a different > place. Before the 11th everybody is in his class and learns > all subjects. After the 10th you get to pick sucjects, > so there is no longer a class system. A bit more like University. > > Hope that helps, > Roland Wolf > 2. Reply from German guy that about half of Germans are in the university oriented high schools, 35% is work oriented, and the remainder is high school for immigrants and other hard core ineducables. The latter seems equivalent to the new remedial high schools that Chicago is starting up for those who flunk high school entry exams. Pay close attention to this thread, I think it finally fills in the holes as to how the German system REALLY works, and you'll never get this explanation from Marc Tucker. Under the German system, students are sorted into 3 high school tracks which are taught in entirely different buildings. The Hauptschule, 15% is the dummy track for immigrants and other ineducables who will make a living picking apples or cleaning hotel rooms. They don't even get a CIM, and the school system, not the child decides which track they are assigned to. The Realschule, 35% of students, is a work-track, and when they get a 10th grade certificate, that's basically graduation, and the end of high school. By US standards, they would be high school dropouts because the next two years, they work at half-wage (boy, Boeing and Microsoft would love that, wouldnt they?), and only spend 1 day a week in classes. University track students skip the 10th grade test. When they graduate, the only test they have to take is the Arbitur, which is equivalent to our SAT or ACT. It not only indicates a passing grade, but also a rank, equivalent to SAT norm-based scores. Tucker inspired tests deliberately omit any ranking information. They pretend that the bell curve is a politically incorrect fiction, holding that "all students will perform at the highest levels". What does that mean? By US standards, 50% of German students end up as dropouts. Only half as many Germans start college (less than half), and only half as many Germans complete 4 years of college (only about 13-15%). By contrast, under the current system, 90% of US students complete 12 years of education, only 10% are dropouts in most areas of the country, and the black dropout rate is now the same as the white rate. Only in the segregated south were there high schools for Black students that only went up to the 10th grade. Only the Hispanic graduation rate is much lower, and much of that is due to immigrants who arrive who have already finished their education. In most schools, there is no test required upon graduation, only having a "D" barely passing average, and 12 years of study. Over 60% of Americans start college immediately after high school, and complete 1 or 2 years of college. Most colleges require a standardized admission test which test for mathetmatical and verbal skills, equivalent to the Arbitur. The college starting rate for blacks, again, is very close to that of whites. 25% of Americans complete 4 years of high school, double the rate of nations like Japan, United Kingdom, or Germany. The rate of college-going is roughly twice as high as average for Jews, and most Asian Americans. The rate for Blacks is lower than whites, but still higher than other industrial competitors. Under various interpretations of Marc Tucker's CIM, all students would be required to get a 10th grade CIM, but graduate at 12th grade, unlike Germany when you only take one test at the level at which you graduate. Under Marc Tucker's original 1992 proposal, students who got the CIM would be allowed to continue 11th and 12th grade, and get two free years of college. Those who flunked would have to repeat 10th grade or drop out. No state has retained this feature, so all states appear to agree that this at least was an unacceptable flaw in the plan. Oregon would require the CIM at the 10th grade, also require all students to get a 12th grade Certificate of Advanced Mastery. Neither of these tests is accepted by any college for admission. Unlike the Arbitur, which ranks students, CIM does not give enough information for college admissions, since it maintains that "all students have performed at the highest levels, and are therefore qualified for all jobs and all colleges". So Oregon students would have to take 3 tests before starting college. Oregon is proposing that all students be required to spend some number of days of the week in a work situation, regardless of college plans. Washington would test at the 10th grade, but graduate students at the 12th grade, and give students who fail the chance to take it at higher grade levels. However, the idea is that a CIM would guarantee or force all high school graduates to "perform at high levels". The current diploma only guarantees in most cities a "D" barely passing grade average, and minimal literacy skills. At least one city, Chicago, has created "remedial" high schools for students who do not meet entrance test standards, much like the Hauptschule. Under the German system, hard core illiterates would be identified by their assignment to the Hauptschule track, under Marc Tucker's proposal, it is assumed that all but the most severely handicapped students are capable of achieving at levels equivalent to the university track (since there is only one track), and that the CIM will eliminate all students performing at low levels, essentially by magic. Graduate Rates Ineducable 10th <12th 12th C1-2 C4 USA 10% <1% <1% 90% 60% 25% Germany 15% 35% 0% 50% 40% 13% CIM/STW 0%? 0% 100%* 0% ? ? * All students must spend less than 12 years of education because some signficant time must be spent at a non-academic work activity. Tests Required for College Track Oregon CIM 3 (CIM, CAM, SAT) WA CIM 2 (CIM, SAT) Conventional 1 (SAT) Germany 1 (Arbitur) Tests for Work Track Oregon CIM 2 (CIM, CAM) WA CIM 1 (CIM) Germany 1 (Mittlere Reife) One more question, to clarify, does the Hauptschule require a test to graduate? What credential do they get, and what is it worth? Is the intent of the graduates of this school to take strictly menial jobs which require no academic skills, like janitor or manual labor? What happens to the Realshule if you do not pass the exit examination? One more question, to clarify, does the Hauptschule require a test to graduate? What credential do they get, and what is it worth? I got a picture from another german: Is this correct that Gymnasium ends at 13, Realscule ends at 11, and Hauptshule ends at 9th years? ,----------, 13 I Abitur I 12 I I ,----------,I I 11 I M.R. II I 10 I II GymnasiumI ,----------,I II I 9 I Qual. II Real- II I 8 I II schule II I 7 I II II I I II II I I ''==========II I 6 I II I I ''==========I 5 I Hauptschule I I==================================I 4 I I 3 I Grundschule I 2 I I 1 I I '----------------------------------' Is the intent of the graduates of this school to take strictly menial jobs which require no academic skills, like janitor or manual labor? What happens to the Realshule if you do not pass the exit examination? From: "Roland & Christine Wolf" To: Subject: Re: 10th grade certificate Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:00:34 +0100 ---------- > Von: Arthur Hu > An: Roland & Christine Wolf > Betreff: Re: 10th grade certificate > Datum: Samstag, 31. Januar 1998 13:14 > > Thanks, you may be right that the 11th grade is probably equal to > most American 12th grades, and your 13th grade is probably worth > 1 year of our college, but Americans would never stand for such a > system here, where some people are expected to finish after the > 9th grade. Well, that`s what our Hauptschule is for. If it is your target to finish school ASAP then it is preferrable if the school acknoledges that and tries to teach the most necessary things within the 9 years. I do think that this is a stupid goal, and would send anybody to at least the Realschule. It teaches better, gives a certificate at the end, and changeover to Gymnasium is possible if your school report supports it. There is one advatage to the three-tiered system not discussed among us yet. From my experiences in the US as well as from what I read, the students all profit if they are in a school where the students are relativly close together in their learning ability. That way there are fewer bored or overwhelmed students. I always thought there was a pretty big gap between the better and the worse students in our classes at the Gymnasium. How the teaching would have looked like if we would have tried to pull everybody through Gymnasium, I do not know. Roland Wolf Germany From: "Roland & Christine Wolf" To: Subject: Re: 10th grade certificate Date sent: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 06:58:18 +0100 ---------- > Von: Arthur Hu > An: Roland & Christine Wolf > Betreff: Re: 10th grade certificate > Datum: Montag, 2. Februar 1998 14:29 > > In the united states, if you do not complete 12 years of high school, > you are considered to be a total failure and not qualified for any > decent middle class job (even though as recently as WWII, only > half of Americans completed high school). > > In fact, there are a large number of immigrants who are outside > the welfare system, mostly Hispanic, who believe in ending school > early to earn income, and who take jobs that do not require > even basic levels of literacy. You may be right that the US would > do better to acknowledge the diversity we have instead of > insisting that 100% of Americans complete 12 years of high > school and 2 years of college, which is the goals of President > Clinton. In Germany there are only VERY few people outside the welfare system, which may be a part of our problems. As of two years ago, it was enough to enter Germany and ask for asylum. Until your claim was disproven, which could take years, you were a legal immigrant. It is not that different these days, we just ask people who come through a "safe" country to apply for asylum there first. The point of this is that nowerdays practically no one goes to the Hauptschule voluntaryly, especially since the Realschule is just one year longer, but have to go there since their school reports leave them no choice. Currently there is an experimental school type in Germany, called the Gesamtschule, which tries to acknowledge the differences between students without relegating students to an easier school entirely. Instead of offering three different schools, they offer three different classes on any given subject, so there is an Hauptschul-level math course, an Realschul-level math course and a Gymnasium-level math course. There are obvious advantages to this, but also problems: The timetable of the school looks more like the plan for a railway station, there are no fixed class structures, and it allowes for too much specialisation too soon. The verdict on that school type is still out. Roland Wolf Germany > Isn't Realschule 2 years later? > the years as I remember them from the chart are > 9 > 11 > 13 > Realschule ends with the 10th class. If you visit the Gymnasium, the end of the 10th class marks a deceided difference: You may pick subjects, and your grades are factored in towards Abitur. Roland Wolf Germany