i:\seng\common\ahu\doc\web\97\08\matsow.txt


Norm, you are only proving that I'm right in that
you confirm that you are in favor of simply abolishing
merit admissions and elite institutions altogether. 
So why don't you be honest and simply say it's a waste
of time to select on the basis of merit instead of 
merely diluting the idea with limited random selection?


You don't have the statistics to prove that random
selection would produce more chinese than a merit system.
The huge disproportionality of Chinese exists even with
high verbal standards, and is higher with the level
of merit. Any random selection scheme would lower the
mean admissions  level, and thus the level or
disproportion by any standard with a distribution similar
to scores.



And again, you weasel around the question of why
random selection would be better than preferences, which
would deliver the best qualified people of every race
subject to target quotas. The numbers at hand show that
the percentage of minorites qualified at the minimum level
is only slightly higher than the percentage in the top
30%, so your proposal only gives the illusion of diversity,
you can't prove that the numbers wouldn't be noticeabley
better than merit only at either Berekeley or Lowell.



When will you finally admit that you simply don't know
what you are talking about? I've never said anything
completely absurd and ridiculous, yet here you are saying
that somebody with no credentials, low grades and low
test scores is as good or better than somebody with much
better credentials, and that elite schools like Berekeley
and Lowell aren't any better than average or bottom 
rated schools.


Why do you spend so much time arguing that the absurd
is the truth, and why do I have to waste so much time
arguing the obvious?


> From:          Norm Matloff <matloff@cs.ucdavis.edu>
> To:            arthurhu@halcyon.com
> Subject:       Re: Sowell on destroying one elite school


> 
> > > > What would be the tragedy if we abolished
> > > > elite schools like Lowell and Berekeley?
> 
> > > > Norm's real agenda is to eradicate the entire
> > > > concept of merit and excellence, and job growth,
> > > > if that's what it takes to keep Chinese from
> > > > flourishing.
> 
> > > Come ON, Arthur.  You've admitted that if my admissions policy were
> > > implemented at Lowell, the number of Chinese would INCREASE.
> 
> > You scheme would also admit fewer Chinese
> > than under a merit only scheme.
> 
> That is a new question which we have not discussed before.  I'll address
> it below, but first let's stick to the question already under
> discussion:  Would my lottery plan result in more Chinese at Lowell
> than now?  The answer is YES, and you have agreed.
> 
> Now let's address the new question you are now bringing up:  Would
> my plan result in more Chinese at Lowell than would a "merit"
> plan (8th-grade GPA and a test score)?  The answer to this one is
> again YES, because (a) Chinese apply to Lowell in numbers far greater
> than other groups, and (b) many immigrant Chinese kids do poorly on
> the verbal portion of the Lowell entrance exam and thus fail to get
> in under the present policy.
> 
> > Do you at least agree that
> > something valuable was destroyed when 
> > Dunbar was converted from an elite school
> > to a community school? 
> 
> No.
> 
> > Or that the it
> > would be harmful to convert Lowell to 
> > the same admissions standard as any
> > other city high school? 
> 
> No.
> 
> Norm
> 
>