z56\doc\web\2003\01\washed.txt
House Education
September 19, 2002
Panel on the origins of the Certificate of Mastery graduation 
requirement. State Board of Education review of its work on the 
validity and reliability of the high school assessment system.
http://198.239.32.172/ramgen/2002091276.rm

<my comments> - Arthur Hu

Chairman Quall (assembles speakers? Not a single anti-WASL speaker)

Interesting Points

- Originators of 1209 claim they were the ones who created the idea of
Certificate of Mastery at age 16, not a high stakes test. No mention
of it being a local codification of Marc Tucker's NCEE master plan.
This is the reason for the errie congruence of "education reform
movement" between all the states.

- No one one questioned high stakes for WASL until survey came up.

- Many teachers want to get rid of WASL as graduation requirement 2nd
most important request to legislature after changing reform away from
WASL to multiple measures. (Which destroys 1209 - Tucker tied CIM to
one test)


<No mention that Certificate Mastery as initially defined by 
Marc Tucker was strictly passing one test.>
Berg: test score trumps other graduation requirements
Berg: many students don't even try some questions
Berg: we need to do some things before we take the diploma away
<education professionals say that no test score should be a roadblock
to a diploma or other high stakes decision or consequence>
why not start low and move it up

standard setting discussion

Hochstatter had suggested attaching ITBS norm reference score to 
diploma (replacing WASL)

sharon santos
talcott
quall
schindler
blended model
international level standards we want
<Nobody discusses that standards are set at 4 year university level
beyond 70% of the population>
<WASL levels have absolutely nothing to do compared with any 
other nation or state - they were pulled out of a hat>
method for students who have the skills but just can't passs wasl
no mention of dropping CIM or WASL
we're not lowering the standard with blended model - SAT GED ACT
<SAT is not a blended model - it's up to college, every college has
a different pass point, and college board says there should NOT be
any cut score with 100% chance of refusal>
we say we are going to lower the bar to have more people passing
we are going to ratchet it up as years go on.
- purple bar (blended?)
- green bar
Bergeson: MIT wants very high math scores, they'll give you a tutor for low
verbals
International as a mantra without a operational definition? What does it
 mean? That would be a huge step to understand that definition.
 Bill Schmidt. We're still getting killed in the high school level. We don't 
 have any idea of how our 10th graders compare with the TIMSS. 
<Why the hell are we claiming international standard when she admits she
doesn't have a clue as to what internatinal high school standard is??>
- No one wants to lower the bar with compensatory
<what a bunch of idiots>
- Delink WASL with federal accountability - 2 different thinks
Bergeson says " I want to see one diploma"
we have two tracks-kids who make it and kids who don't. 
<ARGH! It's completely stupid to pretend everyone can/must perform at one level
where everyone is an honors student>
Berg:
Indiana - their graduation rate is higher than when they started
Massachusetts - students who have retakes and still aren't making
44% of blacks won't graduate. They'll have a problem.
<HELLO!!! WASL FLUNKS NEARLY ALL BLACKS IN WA>
Opportunity to learn issue?
Punishing kids for something we haven't provided.

3 people from original 1209, GCERF to check on history and 
perspective

1 guy mentioned "outcome based education"
John Petrozof Redmond, served on GCERF council
Shift from 80s to 90s to performance - achievement
Paramount Beauty
My recollection of Certificate of Mastery

Describe as time 12 yrs ago trends in education, sounded good, 
fit what was going on.

Idea - had great difficulty with - to replace diploma, diploma
secondary - or diploma is #1? Basic skills, basic understanding.

International standards you're grappling with - I don't recall we
talked about it - mathematics - some countries were beating us.
Establishing standards, you have to look internationally. Every
student meeting every nation is impossible. (YEAH DUH)

We passed an idea on to the legislature (passed on a virus is what
they did through Delphi) 10 years later to hear you grappling with the
same questions.

Kim Peary - was on GCERF
No mention of Marc Tucker.

Really began with idea that ALL STUDENTS CAN LEARN <barf>
Look to other nations for capabilities.

Verbage didn't come up until halfway through.
How do you assess learning. How do you show proficiency
Certificate of Mastery - <no credit to Tucker NCEE>
Given at or about age 16 <again no credit to Tucker>
Never intended to be a single high stakes test <thank god>
Offers opportunity before graduation
Special needs students, 2nd language
Holding high level of performance is in our interest
Were put in place by professionals, while difficult, are not impossible
<oh yes they ARE impossible for most students, goal of 80% pass is impossible>
Question is how good is good enough, going back is not the solution
<ARGH>
Don't abandon high standard because of the few 
<70% is few???? ARGH>
Seattle is better because of the Certificate of Mastery

Turn over to Kim
<Note how they think it was "our" idea when it came straight out of
Marc Tucker's contract blueprint!>

Everything in 28A was a measure of time
Nowhere did it talk about performance of student at what age
<because you can't quantify performance in a standard way>
Fixed part of equation was time 
<in other words they were infected by Outcome Based Education Movement>
The variable ought to be time, age of 16 students should be able 
to start to demonstrate mastery
<That's stupid because kids still graduate at grade 12>
<Certificate of Mastery at age 16 comes straight out of Marc Tucker's
little red book>

Listen a bit

We wanted to raise the standards.
All we knew is that it had to be higher than it was.
At what level were they were were graduating with 
<Everybody agreed? Bull>
Other countries set standards higher than everybody can do.
A lot was preparing the 70% who will not complete a 4 year degree
<Then why require everybody a 4 year degree standard???>
Goal 1
Goal 2 know and apply
Goal 4 stepped away from  (School To Work) we've 

SLIG GRANTS
shared decision making
involved teachers <HARHARHAR>
Goal 4 school to work we've moved away from 

I think if we concentrate on setting standard higher, I think we've don a good 
job, 4th and 7th grade are right on target <50% failing???>

CHALLENGE INTEREST APTITUDE CIA

NOT A JOB A CAREER

Work of 1977 is always Reassessed 
Certain basics - concentrate on the basics 
<OBE is not basics>

Keep a high bar, but keep it basic
Community college meeting
continuum of time, how we will fit
take students who may not achieve, but advance them
demonstrate in year 13 or 14 if not year 10 or 12.
Fine to keep it high 
<BUT THEY WON'T GET A !@#$% DIPLOMA!>

How can you prevent it from being a high stakes test?
<APPPLAUSE!>
It was a much higher standard than 10th grade english.
When you graduate somebody can you guarantee me they are
at 11.5 english math and reading, they'd say know. WE've 
got to have at least that standard
<silly, not everybody at that level>
Should provide proof of skills expected <by who?> of a 
high school graduate?
High stakes was NOT our intent


bergeson - we didn't know how to make alternative assesments <bull,
CIM never called for alternate anything>

Need cadre <comrade?> of teachers who have ability to design
assessments


House Education  
December 05, 2002  
http://198.239.32.167/ramgen/2002121304.rm     


Organized  trips to connecticut, n carolina, massachusetts
<also horror stories, why copy them??>
I can't help but be impressed by what's taking place
I can tell you WASL is no problem for my 10th grader
<yeah, but what about the other 70% who are flunking?>
1999, A plus commission was organized to .... 
<no they are just puppets to be facilitated to the same old 
obe education reform movement>
"school improvement and accountability" 
<is "education reform now going into the wastbasket of 
contaminated terms??>
Sen Mcauliffe
Rodney Tom
This trip to other states was about ... testing..
<how much did THAT cost taxpayers??>
N Carolina would be first in the nation 
<hahahahahaha>
Exit tests were notable
New England States
High teacher pay
Many Mass students will not graduate because of MCAS
 they will have to worry about it 
<and we won't? Of course not, everybody will pass>
When we hit 2008, we have to learn
<Yeah, Duh, get rid of diploma WASL link!>
Spady shows us charter schools at top / bottom
No Child Left Behind
Strong support for direction
Also heard: Leave No Teachers Standing
Need resources

Rep Cox

Mac on phone

North Carolina and "strong intentionality"
it's not working harder but smarter
<then why is everybody working overtime?>


High expectations were raised and maintained

It was the business community that went to the 
governor and said we need this 
<No, Marc Tucker got to them too, nowhere are the
people asking for this crap>


Spady, what we learned on this trip
Highlights
NC sense of shared vision was amazing (of course, it came from the 
same place) They are so far ahead of us.

We are going to be a data driven state, benchmarks
measure progress every year

We're going to compare to other states and international 
<Of course, the WASL was designed to avoid that - you'd find 
out you're average, not bottom of the barrel>

They were worst, and want to be #1
<that's just dumb>

New Supt Hartford will never be the last again bottom of 
bottom - state takeover
Now top of the bottom ....


MASS is 2003, not 2008 5 years ahead, certificate of mastery

It's stressfull

It's resulting in focus 
<so what?>
$50M to tutor to help students pass test 
<waste of money>
Some use gateway tests for promotion
<That's misuse of testing>

Would you do anything different?
Instead of phasing in all tests in 2003, you'd do one test 
at a time.

Get in the habit of "clearing the bar"
<that stupid "bar" terminology again>

NC embraced NCLB

WEA
- strong leadership, let nothing get in their way
- clear decision making process to not hinder ed reform movement
- look at it as an entire system
- Mass has run into major straights because they've taken the high test road.
 could have devasting impact (yeah duh)
- What's going to happen to the movement, may have to pull back


he spoke of the systems approach
reconnecting and looping driven throughout the systrem

considerable amount of acrimony - number of things that could
have lowered that tension.

Just now developing nature of alternative tests

<No way to compare MCAS to WASL pass point>

Dramatic absentee of MCAS failures

Key to management to manage acrimony.

Why this big business involvement in NC?

Passion in leaders.

Viable working ed reform procedures

Once you get that kind of leadership, you can solve the puzzle ...

performance based leadership role

If we expect kids to hit our schools running and meet the 4 learning goals,
we need a preschool plan

very clearly aligned to the same vision

not deviating from the vision

When we hear a message different from the governor from the SPI, you can
figure out what the interpretation of that will be. 

If we truly believe in these 4 goals with a passion, a committment
to be fully prepared when they leave high school....


We're not there, our vision is a bit blurred. 

10 years, something good has happend, the last thing we want to do
is tamper with that
<Oh yeah, the first thing is wake up out of this nightmare before
it's too late>
 
We now know we can do this job. 
Superb address
Take you to 100 schools with challenges that have been overcome
<Bull, you'll never get WASL pass rates up to 100%>

Create a new board to replace school board and Aplus 
Took great political courage to make sure students get skills they need


MULTIPLE MEASURE, DUMP WASL GRADUATION REQUIEMENT #1, 2 DESIRE
OF LEGISLATURE

Survey given out across state. Not scientic. 2 of 3 meetings, 
education organizations. Lot of people with open ended 
responses. 760 classroom educators, administrators.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
- State could design: Teachers want classroom based assessment 
  2nd - statewide assessment for both account + diagnostic.
  Accountability only very low
- Multiple measures 91%
- Same assessment used for schools and students accountable 
  68% no
- What WASL would be most helpful
- Incentives
  - college bound $1000 college scholarship
   automatic admission
   admission into one instituion
  driver licence
  Not:
  - ability to work longer hours
  - ability to get driver licence

********************************************
What should legislature consider now? 
1. Refocus on multiple measures
2. Get rid of WASL as graduation requirement
3. Blended Score
HALLELUIAH!
HALLELUIAH!
HALLELUIAH!
********************************************


A plus meeting

BS - lay out what we want all our kids to be able to do

EALRs was supposed to do this - how do we define this?

We'll never be best in the nation - We don't have the committment 
of North Carolina 
BARF....

We can't be anymore detailed than the vision we have to be 
better than anybody.

I think we need a vision 

If we're working together...

The reason is once you move away from the original Tucker 
architecture / master plan, you no longer have a unified vision!

Bergeson - now we have a whole new set of powerful principles and 
I haven't even seen it yet. Haven't had a debate
<Debate? Does Bergeson know the meaning of the word????>


WASL GRADUATION REQUIREMENT 

... many have questioned the state law that you must
pass WASL to get a diploma ... that is the law...
we can't wait to 2008

if in fact that requirement goes away, so be it....