Review of Dale Seymour 3rd Grade math book:
TURTLE PATH UNIT IS USELESS FOR MOST MAC-LESS CLASSROOMS
Turtle paths 2d geometry
To
Janice Linville
Julie Goldsmith
Karen Bates
Jeff Newport
and anybody else guilty of inflicting Dale Seymour on our kids
and not knowing any better:
I took some notes from the 3rd grade Dale Seymour book, and now
realize that my son, other than a few attempts at home, has absolutely
NO instruction in traditional multiplication or division because the
only instruction he got was from the Dale Seymour book, even though
there was plenty of instruction and samples in the Scott Forseman
book and the Modern Curriculum press book I gave the teachers.
I'll absolve the teachers because they don't know enough math to see
through the problems, but the leadership should have enough sense to
see that when a book advocates that mathematicians don't use notation
for long division, and notation designed for long division and long
multiplication don't neccesarily mean that, and when the only mention
in the teachers book regarding time-tested methods is to don't allow
kids to do it if their parents showed them how, that you're feeding
our kids absolute garbage.
I was hoping that, like I've been told, that there would be a balance
approach. In fact, the 2000 NCTM standards, and the WASL and EALRS
all call for and test for traditional computation methods. If they
simply had some coverage from Scott Forseman, this would not be a
problem. Mr. Vandegrift in 2nd grade has done a marvelous job of at
least including some traditional carry and borrow worksheets, despite
the Dale Seymour insistence that this method must be discouraged, and
certainly not taught.
Teaching ONLY from Dale Seymour is clearly in violation of this. Even
teaching to the spirit of Dale Seymour is in violation since it takes
a very clear ideological position that traditional algorithms are not
to be taught, or even tolerated. I don't mind kids doing some
contructivist stuff for fun, but this cannot and must not be used
as a replacement for arithmetic, which is clearly what the authors
of Dale Seymour intended when they unilaterally declare that long
division and long multiplication and notation such as 6
remainder 3 are inefficient and confusing, and no longer used
in mathematics. There are SAT and WASL problems clearly built
around assessment of long multiplication and long division, which
lake washington kids will score ZERO on because of Dale Seymour.
Here are some notes I took when I peeked at the 3rd Grade Dale
Seymour book. One entire book is useless because it was written
assuming that they have enough advance Mac computers for everybody 2
to a workstation, which they admit is less than realistic, but
"demonstrates how math should be taught in the near future". Then I
want to scream when they have unit on volume (never mind that length
x width = area is barely touched on in a normal 4th grade text), and
the only method they want to ban is volume = length x height x depth,
which is what is on the formula sheet for the 10th grade WASL!
Then the unit on multiplication wants you to use a calculator, but
NOT the multiply key, you're supposed to do 5 + = = = to "skip
count" to 15, and again, the theme is to NOT mention the standard
method except to state that some unfortunate kids will walk in
already miseducated in carrying and borrowing or long division, and
your job is to discourage such "inefficient and confusing methods",
and encourage the use of "number sense" to come up with the best
approach which might be left to right. Of course, there is no
explicit instruction as to how this number sense might be used in a
general case other than the one example they give. It's REALLY
maddening when they state the stacked form of multiply, which
exists ONLY for long multiplication and the )--- over-bar long
division form are obsolete, and dont mean you have to solve them
that way, but they just want kids to recognize that they signify
muliply and divide by whatever way they are comfortable. Even
when it comes to remainders, they state "we don't tell them to
write 10 R 3, they can state what remains any way they feel
comfortable". What planet are these folks from that they can
confidently repeal everything that's been taught in mathematics
for the past 1000 years?? They even say that real mathematicians
never use the long division form. Of course, how many parents
will ever read this madness? I remember when the 5th grade
teacher answer "well, actually it doen't teach how to do any
arithmetic that's supposed to happen in the lower grades", but
it isn't taught at ANY grade level, and my textbook series says
it takes all the way to end of 5th grade to master decimal math
over 4 operations with percent.
I guess a real good sanity check
is to have your math teacher read over this, and see whether
she says it's terrific, or it's brain damaged. How sane people
can celebrate over this crap is truly astounding.
My 3rd grader also got an erronous keyboard finger assignment
which does not follow the RFV and TGB assignment for the left
index finger, I don't know where that came from.
Visiting my 2nd grader classroom, I was shocked to find 2 2nd
graders reading the Harry Potter books as their choice of reading,
one was going through the 1st book, and another was going through
the latest one (all 3 inches), claiming he had read all of the prior
books (and answering just about every question I gave him on the
1st book). This only proves that instruction in school has almost
nothing to do with excellence. Nobody can set an outcome of
"every student will read every Harry Potter book by end of 2nd
Grade" and expect it to happen, that's about the same as setting
"everyone will pass WASL".
Another bit of interesting news, AG Bell is putting kids on
schedule Metro bus to do field trips to Pike Place Market and
Woodland Park Zoo. It's kind of fun, kids pay 75 cents,but what
happened to the days of when they used school buses to do this?
Math notes start here:
QUOTE:
Piaget says children dont make mental photographs, but note the
outline. (That's ridiculous. 2 yr olds can tell the difference
between a triangle and a circle, and it's not by making little logo
turtle programs with 60 degree left turns in their heads!)
Structured around 5-8 computers so half can use at once Of course,
amost don't have this many (ag bell is only 2) syudents working in
Pairs of students spend 20 min per day. If you only have two
computers have pairs working at the computer all day while studnets
do other activities. (yeah, right, and what if you have only ONE mac
like my school??)
"At present, few classrooms have access to this many computers but we
have chosen to write the unit this way for two reasons: First, having
5 to 8 computers available all day in your classroom is most
conducive to effectve and efficient use of these resources. Second,
writing the unit this way privides a model for the way computers may
be integrated in the near future" (This is completely stupid. They've
deliberately designed this unit so that most schools can't possibly
use it because ey don't have 5 to 8 up-to-date Mac computers. They
don't even offer a windows version of the software, and the software
cost isn't included with the cost of the textbook series)
we have 1 mac 1 pc
Requires Mac II 4M System 7
Large screen monitor for teacher (yeah, every classroom has one of
these? Well they do at the computer lab in Edmonds community college,
but not elementary schools)
Geo-Logo
"computers in general and geo-logo in particular are motivating to
students"
teach - run erase all
Kids learn rt90 lf45 (right 90 degrees, left 45 degrees)
Kids should learn 360 full turn 180 half 90 quarter turn degrees
(this is 3rd grade geometry??) They don't even see what a protractor is.
-> Distinguish between closed and open figures (most elementary school
geometry never touches on "open" figures, polygons and circles are all
closed)
-> students should learn to draw equilateral triangles by estimate
trial error (that's crazy, they shouldn't even be tackling
equilateral triangles, and of course they're not going to teach that
the since the sum of all anges is 180, all you have to do is divide
by 180 by 3, even dividing 180 by 3 is pretty ambitious for a math
text that doesn't teach how to divide other than repeated subtraction
fd bk
12 to 6 clock is rt 180
fd space 30
return
delete
fd 40 fd 20 is fd 60
erase tool
The teacher's manual looks like a Visual Basic course with pages
describing all the tools on the GeoLogo program screen. It would be
easier to teach kids to run BASIC programs than using the graphical
user interface of this program. They have to learn how to save, open
files, tools, buttons, the whole schmear. This is computer science,
not 3rd grade mathematics
This was the only book on my teachers shelf which was not filled with
post it notes, obviously there is no way any school in the district
will be able to use this book, even though it looks like about 10% of
the content being 1 of 10 books.
The precise mthod is not so important. What is essential is thaty they employ a mthod that makes sense to them and gives the correct number if cubes
12+12=24. Counted number of cubes on the bottom (does
not learn that area = width x height)! They're still
expected to count, and only multiply layers!
It is essential not to impose on students any particular approaches
to predicting or determining numbers of cubes. If you do, most
students will learn the suggested approaches by rote (Bettet to learn
hxwxd by rote than counting by discovery)
From another book on 3d geometry, there is a project on figuring out
the volume of a box. Of course they advocate that students do any
strategy they want... except the one that is listed on the 10th grade
WASL test formula sheet: " There is however, one strategy that we
distinctly do not want to encourage: the method of length x width x
height because most students in elementary school simply memorize the formula - they have no idea why it works. In fact, finding the number of cubes in a layer and multiplying by the number of layers is a much more powerful and general way of thinking about this problem. they just walk in learning this from school but don't
understand how or why". This is just like any method of adding is fine
except borrow/carry, and any method of figuring how many quarters are in
3.75 is fine except long division. How in the heck are you supposed to
grow up to use the most efficient method if that's precisely the method
the teacher is told to slap you on the knuckles for if they catch you
doing it?
Things that come in groups - multiplicationa and division??
Use calculator for skip counting 0+4=== but not the x or div key!
learn about arrays - computer science, not g3 concept
Note we do not ask students to use the form 4)---20
in this curriculum, it is not a form used by mathematicians.
However this form is still used on tests and some textbooks
Sometimes a problem does not divide evenly. Rather than
teaching students to write R for the remainder, have them
describe remainder in any way that makes sense to them
How many cats would there be if there were 144 legs
in all?
(No instruction, not even 144 / 4 just pictures and
grouping or skip counting)
When students see problems written in standard forms such as
these
56
x8
---
+---
4|132
the form of the problem may trigger use of poorly understood
and often inefficient algorithms. For example, in the first
problem, students might start to say 8 times 6 is 48,
put down the 8, and carry the 4... This procedure (which
is not taught in this series) obscures good use of
_number sense_ and often leads students to fragment a number
into its digits and lose track of the quantities represented by
the numerals. Good mental strategies often start from the
left, focusing on the largest part of the number, rather
than the smallest: 8 50s is 400 eight 6s is 48
so that's 448
Students need to develop efficient computation strategies, many
of which will be mental strategies, but these must be based on
their understanding of the quantities and their relationships,
not on memorized procedures. We would like students to recognize multiplication and division problems written in all
of the notations but to solve them in their own way.
addison wesley - mult 3 digit by 1 using regrouping
divide 55 / 6 r 1 - no long division
dividing with a calulator
use int div key
and cons key (special calculator)
Investigations - split 4 brownies 5 ways ( split each
into 5 pieces)
Review of Dale Seymour 3rd Grade math book:
TURTLE PATH UNIT IS USELESS FOR MOST MAC-LESS CLASSROOMS
Turtle paths 2d geometry
QUOTE:
Piaget says children dont make mental photographs, but note the
outline. (That's ridiculous. 2 yr olds can tell the difference
between a triangle and a circle, and it's not by making little logo
turtle programs with 60 degree left turns in their heads!)
Structured around 5-8 computers so half can use at once Of course,
amost don't have this many (ag bell is only 2) syudents working in
Pairs of students spend 20 min per day. If you only have two
computers have pairs working at the computer all day while studnets
do other activities. (yeah, right, and what if you have only ONE mac
like my school??)
"At present, few classrooms have access to this many computers but we
have chosen to write the unit this way for two reasons: First, having
5 to 8 computers available all day in your classroom is most
conducive to effectve and efficient use of these resources. Second,
writing the unit this way privides a model for the way computers may
be integrated in the near future" (This is completely stupid. They've
deliberately designed this unit so that most schools can't possibly
use it because ey don't have 5 to 8 up-to-date Mac computers. They
don't even offer a windows version of the software, and the software
cost isn't included with the cost of the textbook series)
we have 1 mac 1 pc
Requires Mac II 4M System 7
Large screen monitor for teacher (yeah, every classroom has one of
these? Well they do at the computer lab in Edmonds community college,
but not elementary schools)
Geo-Logo
"computers in general and geo-logo in particular are motivating to
students"
teach - run erase all
Kids learn rt90 lf45 (right 90 degrees, left 45 degrees)
Kids should learn 360 full turn 180 half 90 quarter turn degrees
(this is 3rd grade geometry??) They don't even see what a protractor is.
-> Distinguish between closed and open figures (most elementary school
geometry never touches on "open" figures, polygons and circles are all
closed)
-> students should learn to draw equilateral triangles by estimate
trial error (that's crazy, they shouldn't even be tackling
equilateral triangles, and of course they're not going to teach that
the since the sum of all anges is 180, all you have to do is divide
by 180 by 3, even dividing 180 by 3 is pretty ambitious for a math
text that doesn't teach how to divide other than repeated subtraction
fd bk
12 to 6 clock is rt 180
fd space 30
return
delete
fd 40 fd 20 is fd 60
erase tool
The teacher's manual looks like a Visual Basic course with pages
describing all the tools on the GeoLogo program screen. It would be
easier to teach kids to run BASIC programs than using the graphical
user interface of this program. They have to learn how to save, open
files, tools, buttons, the whole schmear. This is computer science,
not 3rd grade mathematics
This was the only book on my teachers shelf which was not filled with
post it notes, obviously there is no way any school in the district
will be able to use this book, even though it looks like about 10% of
the content being 1 of 10 books.
The precise mthod is not so important. What is essential is thaty they employ a mthod that makes sense to them and gives the correct number if cubes
12+12=24. Counted number of cubes on the bottom (does
not learn that area = width x height)! They're still
expected to count, and only multiply layers!
It is essential not to impose on students any particular approaches to predicting or determining numbers of cubes. If you do, most students will learn the suggested approaches by rote (Bettet to learn hxwxd by rote than counting by discovery)
From another book on 3d geometry, there is a project on figuring out
the volume of a box. Of course they advocate that students do any
strategy they want... except the one that is listed on the 10th grade
WASL test formula sheet: " There is however, one strategy that we
distinctly do not want to encourage: the method of length x width x
height because most students in elementary school simply memorize the formula - they have no idea why it works. In fact, finding the number of cubes in a layer and multiplying by the number of layers is a much more powerful and general way of thinking about this problem. they just walk in learning this from school but don't
understand how or why". This is just like any method of adding is fine
except borrow/carry, and any method of figuring how many quarters are in
3.75 is fine except long division. How in the heck are you supposed to
grow up to use the most efficient method if that's precisely the method
the teacher is told to slap you on the knuckles for if they catch you
doing it?
Things that come in groups - multiplication and division??
Use calculator for skip counting 0+4=== but not the x or div key!
learn about arrays - computer science, not g3 concept
Note we do not ask students to use the form 4)---20
in this curriculum, it is not a form used by mathematicians.
However this form is still used on tests and some textbooks
Sometimes a problem does not divide evenly. Rather than
teaching students to write R for the remainder, have them
describe remainder in any way that makes sense to them
How many cats would there be if there were 144 legs
in all?
(No instruction, not even 144 / 4 just pictures and
grouping or skip counting)
When students see problems written in standard forms such as
these
56
x8
---
+---
4|132
the form of the problem may trigger use of poorly understood
and often inefficient algorithms. For example, in the first
problem, students might start to say 8 times 6 is 48,
put down the 8, and carry the 4... This procedure (which
is not taught in this series) obscures good use of
_number sense_ and often leads students to fragment a number
into its digits and lose track of the quantities represented by
the numerals. Good mental strategies often start from the
left, focusing on the largest part of the number, rather
than the smallest: 8 50s is 400 eight 6s is 48
so that's 448
Students need to develop efficient computation strategies, many
of which will be mental strategies, but these must be based on
their understanding of the quantities and their relationships,
not on memorized procedures. We would like students to recognize multiplication and division problems written in all
of the notations but to solve them in their own way.
addison wesley - mult 3 digit by 1 using regrouping
divide 55 / 6 r 1 - no long division
dividing with a calulator
use int div key
and cons key (special calculator)
Investigations - split 4 brownies 5 ways ( split each
into 5 pieces)
Here are some notes I took when I peeked at the 3rd Grade Dale
Seymour book. One entire book is useless because it was written
assuming that they have enough advance Mac computers for everybody 2 to a workstation, which they admit is less than realistic, but "demonstrates how math should be taught in the
near future". Dale Reed is probably very proud of the use of Logo,
but the teacher's guide looked like a user reference manual, when
3rd graders are barely computer literate, this is nearly as complex
as a CAD program to operate, and expect kids to draw
equilateral triangles by trial and error using forward,back, turn
by steps and degrees????
Quick grownups, how do you draw an equilateral triangle using
logo turtle commands?
Then I want to scream when they have unit on
volume (never mind that length x width = area is barely touched on
in a normal 4th grade text), and the only method they want to
ban is volume = length x height x depth, which is what is on the
formula sheet for the 10th grade WASL!
Then the unit on multiplication wants you to use a calculator, but
NOT the multiply key, you're supposed to do 5 + = = = to "skip
count" to 15, and again, the theme is to NOT mention the standard
method except to state that some unfortunate kids will walk in
already miseducated in carrying and borrowing or long division, and
your job is to discourage such "inefficient and confusing methods",
and encourage the use of "number sense" to come up with the best
approach which might be left to right. Of course, there is no
explicit instruction as to how this number sense might be used in a
general case other than the one example they give. It's REALLY
maddening when they state the stacked form of multiply, which
exists ONLY for long multiplication and the )--- over-bar long
division form are obsolete, and dont mean you have to solve them
that way, but they just want kids to recognize that they signify
muliply and divide by whatever way they are comfortable. Even
when it comes to remainders, they state "we don't tell them to
write 10 R 3, they can state what remains any way they feel
comfortable". What planet are these folks from that they can
confidently repeal everything that's been taught in mathematics
for the past 1000 years?? They even say that real mathematicians
never use the long division form. Of course, how many parents
will ever read this madness? I remember when the 5th grade
teacher answer "well, actually it doen't teach how to do any
arithmetic that's supposed to happen in the lower grades", but
it isn't taught at ANY grade level, and my textbook series says
it takes all the way to end of 5th grade to master decimal math
over 4 operations with percent.
I guess a real good sanity check
is to have your math teacher read over this, and see whether
she says it's terrific, or it's brain damaged. How sane people
can celebrate over this crap is truly astounding.
They had a stack of the Scott Forseman books which actually
taught how to multiply 320 by 3 with carry, and how to divide
60 by 7 with remainder, but that book was not at all touched,
nor was the Modern Curriculum press book. None of the 3rd
graders had ANY instruction this year in long multiplication or
long division, and that's probably true for the entire Lake
Washington school district.
My 3rd grader also got an erronous keyboard finger assignment
which does not follow the RFV and TGB assignment for the left
index finger, I don't know where that came from.
Visiting my 2nd grader classroom, I was shocked to find 2 2nd
graders reading the Harry Potter books as their choice of reading,
one was going through the 1st book, and another was going through
the latest one (all 3 inches), claiming he had read all of the prior
books (and answering just about every question I gave him on the
1st book). This only proves that instruction in school has almost
nothing to do with excellence. Nobody can set an outcome of
"every student will read every Harry Potter book by end of 2nd
Grade" and expect it to happen, that's about the same as setting
"everyone will pass WASL".
Another bit of interesting news, AG Bell is putting kids on
schedule Metro bus to do field trips to Pike Place Market and
Woodland Park Zoo. It's kind of fun, kids pay 75 cents,but what
happened to the days of when they used school buses to do this?
Review of Dale Seymour 3rd Grade math book:
TURTLE PATH UNIT IS USELESS FOR MOST MAC-LESS CLASSROOMS
Turtle paths 2d geometry
QUOTE:
Piaget says children dont make mental photographs, but note the
outline. (That's ridiculous. 2 yr olds can tell the difference
between a triangle and a circle, and it's not by making little logo
turtle programs with 60 degree left turns in their heads!)
Structured around 5-8 computers so half can use at once Of course,
amost don't have this many (ag bell is only 2) syudents working in
Pairs of students spend 20 min per day. If you only have two
computers have pairs working at the computer all day while studnets
do other activities. (yeah, right, and what if you have only ONE mac
like my school??)
"At present, few classrooms have access to this many computers but we
have chosen to write the unit this way for two reasons: First, having
5 to 8 computers available all day in your classroom is most
conducive to effectve and efficient use of these resources. Second,
writing the unit this way privides a model for the way computers may
be integrated in the near future" (This is completely stupid. They've
deliberately designed this unit so that most schools can't possibly
use it because ey don't have 5 to 8 up-to-date Mac computers. They
don't even offer a windows version of the software, and the software
cost isn't included with the cost of the textbook series)
we have 1 mac 1 pc
Requires Mac II 4M System 7
Large screen monitor for teacher (yeah, every classroom has one of
these? Well they do at the computer lab in Edmonds community college,
but not elementary schools)
Geo-Logo
"computers in general and geo-logo in particular are motivating to
students"
teach - run erase all
Kids learn rt90 lf45 (right 90 degrees, left 45 degrees)
Kids should learn 360 full turn 180 half 90 quarter turn degrees
(this is 3rd grade geometry??) They don't even see what a protractor is.
-> Distinguish between closed and open figures (most elementary school
geometry never touches on "open" figures, polygons and circles are all
closed)
-> students should learn to draw equilateral triangles by estimate
trial error (that's crazy, they shouldn't even be tackling
equilateral triangles, and of course they're not going to teach that
the since the sum of all anges is 180, all you have to do is divide
by 180 by 3, even dividing 180 by 3 is pretty ambitious for a math
text that doesn't teach how to divide other than repeated subtraction
fd bk
12 to 6 clock is rt 180
fd space 30
return
delete
fd 40 fd 20 is fd 60
erase tool
The teacher's manual looks like a Visual Basic course with pages
describing all the tools on the GeoLogo program screen. It would be
easier to teach kids to run BASIC programs than using the graphical
user interface of this program. They have to learn how to save, open
files, tools, buttons, the whole schmear. This is computer science,
not 3rd grade mathematics
This was the only book on my teachers shelf which was not filled with
post it notes, obviously there is no way any school in the district
will be able to use this book, even though it looks like about 10% of
the content being 1 of 10 books.
The precise mthod is not so important. What is essential is thaty they employ a mthod that makes sense to them and gives the correct number if cubes
12+12=24. Counted number of cubes on the bottom (does
not learn that area = width x height)! They're still
expected to count, and only multiply layers!
It is essential not to impose on students any particular approaches to predicting or determining numbers of cubes. If you do, most students will learn the suggested approaches by rote (Bettet to learn hxwxd by rote than counting by discovery)
From another book on 3d geometry, there is a project on figuring out
the volume of a box. Of course they advocate that students do any
strategy they want... except the one that is listed on the 10th grade
WASL test formula sheet: " There is however, one strategy that we
distinctly do not want to encourage: the method of length x width x
height because most students in elementary school simply memorize the formula - they have no idea why it works. In fact, finding the number of cubes in a layer and multiplying by the number of layers is a much more powerful and general way of thinking about this problem. they just walk in learning this from school but don't
understand how or why". This is just like any method of adding is fine
except borrow/carry, and any method of figuring how many quarters are in
3.75 is fine except long division. How in the heck are you supposed to
grow up to use the most efficient method if that's precisely the method
the teacher is told to slap you on the knuckles for if they catch you
doing it?
Things that come in groups - multiplication and division??
Use calculator for skip counting 0+4=== but not the x or div key!
learn about arrays - computer science, not g3 concept
Note we do not ask students to use the form 4)---20
in this curriculum, it is not a form used by mathematicians.
However this form is still used on tests and some textbooks
Sometimes a problem does not divide evenly. Rather than
teaching students to write R for the remainder, have them
describe remainder in any way that makes sense to them
How many cats would there be if there were 144 legs
in all?
(No instruction, not even 144 / 4 just pictures and
grouping or skip counting)
When students see problems written in standard forms such as
these
56
x8
---
+---
4|132
the form of the problem may trigger use of poorly understood
and often inefficient algorithms. For example, in the first
problem, students might start to say 8 times 6 is 48,
put down the 8, and carry the 4... This procedure (which
is not taught in this series) obscures good use of
_number sense_ and often leads students to fragment a number
into its digits and lose track of the quantities represented by
the numerals. Good mental strategies often start from the
left, focusing on the largest part of the number, rather
than the smallest: 8 50s is 400 eight 6s is 48
so that's 448
Students need to develop efficient computation strategies, many
of which will be mental strategies, but these must be based on
their understanding of the quantities and their relationships,
not on memorized procedures. We would like students to recognize multiplication and division problems written in all
of the notations but to solve them in their own way.
The addison wesley textbooks actually teaches classic math methods
with no preaching againt arithemetic as we all know it, but these
were not used at all!
mult 3 digit by 1 using regrouping
divide 55 / 6 r 1 - no long division
dividing with a calulator
use int div key
and cons key (special calculator)
Investigations - split 4 brownies 5 ways ( split each into 5 pieces)
using bizzare methods such split each piece into 5 pieces. In real
life you give one brownie to each kid and save the leftovers, and
this is way beyond the level of fractions kids should be doing in 3rd
grade!
On 28 Jun 01, at 11:54, Dale R. Reed wrote:
> Dale Reed is probably very proud of the use of Logo,
>
> You got that right Arthur. If anyone wants my latest versions of Math1.doc
> and/or Logo1.doc files just whistle. Older versions are at
> http://www.educationalfreedom.com/Thinking/Dale_Reed/page3.html
>
> > draw equilateral triangles by trial and error using forward,back, turn by
> steps and degrees????
>
> to triangle
> cs
> repeat 3[ fd 100 rt 120]
> gifsave "triangle.gif
> end
ARGH! And they're supposed to learn this instead of
how to divide 144 by 4 or multiply 13 x 3?
How much trial and error to figure out it's a rt 120
since they don't tell you to simply divide 180 by
3 to get 60 degrees for a equilateral triangle until
high school?
I hope you're at least completely appalled that
they have absolutely no support for schools with PCs,
or classrooms with 0 or 1 macs in it, or by the
anti-mathematics position that no sane person should
ever use or be instructed in traditional mathematics?
What is the PC standad logo package anyways, and how
much time does it take for a standard teacher to get
a classroom of kids proficient in running the program?
> ---
> $ dale-reed@worldnet.att.net Seattle, Washington USA $
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To:
From: "Dale R. Reed"
Date sent: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 07:54:11 -0700
Send reply to: wa-ed-deform@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [wa-ed-deform] More Fun with Dale Seymour Anti-Math
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> ARGH! And they're supposed to learn this instead of how to divide 144 by
> 4
or multiply 13 x 3?
Instructivism at its worse. Heck Arthur, robots(AI is opening this weekend
in Seattle guess we had both go see it) can multiply. But humans can love
to think and learn.
> How much trial and error to figure out it's a rt 120 since they don't
> tell
you to simply divide 180 by 3 to get 60 degrees for a equilateral triangle
until high school?
"They don't tell you?" "Trial and error?" Arthur is that what they
*taught* you at MIT? Or to be more precise, is that what you learned at
MIT? That you must be taught. My vision of human capabilities are higher
than "trial and error."
Logo is about thinking about thinking. Of course programming(including
Logo programming) and life includes some trial and error(risk taking) but
by and large the rewards go to those who are good thinkers. Those that
think into the future making reliable predictions to better change their
prospects and/or adapt to it.
Or at least the rewards will go to the best thinkers after we abandon the
Welfare State. But that is another thread.
> I hope you're at least completely appalled that they have absolutely no
support for schools with PCs, or classrooms with 0 or 1 macs in it,
Arthur now we are going where I really want to go. You are beginning to
think important thoughts. Something that a robot cannot do.
I think that personal computers are personal. Each person will eventually
have one of his own wearing it on his belt or wrist. Possibly much of his
or her personal data and software will be on big central mainframes but
each person will have the world's knowledge at his fingertips however the
technology eventually works out.
Hence I think that the present duplication of computers is a huge waste of
resources. Why not just lower are taxes so each of us can own are
*personal* computers? Why should we be forced to pay for computers in
schools?
> or by the anti-mathematics position that no sane person should ever use
> or
be instructed in traditional mathematics?
My two sons added and subtracted in different number bases in their heads
*before* they entered kindergarten. Actually most of the neighborhood
kids did also because as they "helped" me saw and split my winter firewood
and truck to our favorite fishing holes we would do mathematical exercises
in our heads. They were ready for using their easily developed
mathematical talents long before they started school. We do not need to
be forced to do what is enjoyable and fun. Like learning new things and
gaining new skills.
> What is the PC standard logo package
I will download my two(Logo1.doc and Math1.doc) files to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wa-ed-deform/files/ But bottom line there
is no standard Logo. But if anyone wants my advice about what kind of
Logo they should use they can read my Logo1.doc file and write me a
personal e-mail. I spend big time in cyberspace advising folks about how
to enjoy developing their own thinking skills.
> and how much time does it take for a standard teacher to get a classroom
of kids proficient in running the program?
Ask your questions on the LogoForum at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LogoForum These teachers from all over the
world have been teaching Logo for many years. And new ones regularly come
online asking how to better do their teaching thing. But, by and large,
these constructivist folks advocate that the learner teach himself. With
the teacher's help of course. Just as he will have to do the rest of his
life. Especially in the Information Age.
Learning how to learn themselves and other learners. Not teachers but
from other folks that love learning. Just as hundreds of thousands of
unschoolers and self-directed learners are doing right this very moment.
Just like you and I are doing Arthur. And Juanita and Jean Ward are
doing. Right now. Dale --- $ dale-reed@worldnet.att.net Seattle,
Washington USA $
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