CELBA: IF THE CHINESE ARE SO SUPERIOR, WHY DON'T THEY RULE THE WORLD z50\doc\web\2001\06\chininf.txt From: "Steven Reilly Celba" To: Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 7:21 AM Subject: Memeber of a self-selected elite Greetings from a neurologist at the Institute Pasteur in Lille(F). Usually I avoid people who describe themselves as "something of an expert;" however, given your political ambitions and your inferiority complex manifested as superiority complex, I thought I'd write to you regarding "race and intelligence" instead of having my water break. If asians are of superior intelligence, why then with 26% of the world's population are Chinese only .87% of nobel prize winners in the sciences/economics(Daniel Tsui 1998collaberative in physics & Yuan Lee 1986 chemistry)? Also, only one chinese has ever won a Fields Prize(Shing-tun Yau); making china's total only 2% of Fields prize winners. Switzerland with only 7 million people beats china 8:1 in both Nobel prizes and Fields medals. Also, according to the UN Human Development Index, China is listed as having the 107th highest standard of living. 1/3 of all Chinese are illiterate and 7% have access to clean, potable water. Perhaps it is a dangerous assumption of me to expect higher living standards from more intelligent beings. Perhaps the hierachical, state-focused confucian culture is more detremental then positive to human development which would explain the movement of intellectually "superior" asians into the "inferior" regions of N. America and Europe. My question, why then would intellectually superior beings create such a limiting, growth inhibiting behavior code/culture? Also, the UN Human Development Index places three African countries above China for overall living standards(Libya, Seychelles, Cape Verde). I would also expect given the long history of human cost benefit analysis, for the intectually superior to asian to economically dominate the planet. This is far from the case. According to American magazine FORBES, of the 100 richest individuals in the world only 10 were Asian(including a UAE and Saudi citizen), 2 were Chinese. The top four were Americans of Irish-Catholic origins. Please explain. Arthur Responds: Thanks very much for visiting. You bring up a very good point, if Asians Americans are so darned smart and successful, why don't they win proportionally even more awards, and why don't we rule the world instead of, as you point out, Irish white guys? That's a question I've often asked myself, the answer I usually get from human developement theorists has something to do with Europeans having an ethic of taking risks to ever greater development and capital and having the vision to take over the world when the Chinese thought they were so great they didn't even have to bother. I'd like to post this message on my website, it's about the best piece slamming the status of Chinese achievement with so many data points in such short a space. Perhaps you are familiar with Norman Matloff, who believes that the accomplishment of immigrants, particularly Chinese and Indians is of no consequence, and are less innovative than mostly white natives. Part of the of problem with the Nobel prizes is that they do seem to be Eurocentric, favoring Swiss in particular as you note (what the heck did the Swiss ever do? Did they discover America, put a Man on the Moon or invent the cotton gin??) China is also an astonishingly backward and undeveloped nation, as well as the Chinese disapora has done. Indian immigrants are even more impressive than the Chinese in technical and medical fields, but that's one big hole as far as development is concerned. The main point of my site though is to counter the usual common wisdom that racism and poverty make the world go round, when if you care to spend any time looking at Asians in America, you'll find they routinely break all the rules with better health, longer life, and better grades and test scores compared to whites with much higher incomes and political power. In the end, I think the west will have to adopt more of the orderly heirarchy of the East, while the East will have to liberalize, and we'll end up learning from each other. Asians, once they've learned the western tricks of a free economy, liberal government, and technology seem quite capable of beating Westerners at their own game in many fields, but this isn't true of most of Asia. Celba responds again: "Asians are capable of beating westerns at their own game:" Perhaps this statement was informed by the 1960-1989 Japanese bubble economy. NOT at all a good example. Japanese were buying over inflated real-estate/infrastructure, pumping large amounts of capital into the US stock market(where else could they put it), while Japanese indutrial groups used highly inefficient labour strategies which greatly lowered productivity rates. End result: an economy dependant upon manufacturing, a mismanaged and backward financial sector, and all but two Japanese auto makers bought up by US and European companies. Nissan would have collapsed without Lebanese-Brazilian Chairman Carlos Ghosn who Renault brought in when they took Nissan over. Isuzu and Subaru would have been buried in the Japanese domestic market without GM. Anyway, the Swiss have never "done anything." Let's see: along with the Principality of Liechtenstein, the Swiss cantons have the world's highest GNP per capita, the highest value added profitability to manufactured goods, the world's densest public transport system. I'll stop there. All of this and more in a country of a mere 7 million who speak 4 different languages. Perhaps the fact that they haven't been at war since the Napoleonic Campaigns has something to do with it. You seem to overly romanticise the Nation-State, and use the rather recent constructs of Nation-States for many of your arguements. On Asian-Americans lower rates of cancer, higher test scores, etc... Try not to forget the class issues at work here. The Asians who do immigrate to the US are largely motivated, and highly intelligent. Lower rates of diseas, etc are likely to do a diet more rich in seafood and vegetables. Norwegian-born Americans have a lower rate of cancer and heart disease than do Chinese or Japanese born Americans. The lowest rate of heart disease among American immigrant groups are Italian and Moroccan-born immigrants. Remember the longest lifespans in the world are found in those countries where seafood and vegetables are the mainstays of the diet(Iceland, Japan, Norway, Italy, France). The highest per capita incomes of immigrants to the US are found in Canadian, Danish, Norwegian, French and German born immigrants. On test scores: I have for 7 years been travelling the world as part of a 15 year project to study the brain function and brain devolopment of modern Homo Sapiens. Twice my research here at the Pastuer Institute has been published in the UK journal NATURE. I can say that while our work continues, the highest pre-literate(prior to reading age), pre-verbal(prior to speaking age) and adult IQ scores are not, are NOT found in any Asian countries. We have tested over 76,000 indiduals using a wide battery of tests(at the adult level we use the University of Wisconsins WISAIC-3) to determine cognitive reasoning, spatial reasoning, and at the literate level, reading comprehension. For the past 7 years, the Pasteur Institute has found that indeed certain populations score higher throughout their lives than others. Most interesting there is a population of people with shared Mitochondrial DNA in present day Morocco, Iberia, and the Alps who consistantly outperform any group anywhere. These Europeans/North Africans who share this Mitochondrial ancestor are closely related to the semi-pastoral Iron working modern Homo Sapiens who first entered Europe/Morocco from the present-day Middle East. In Morocco, among the Berber peoples of the High Atlas we found no one who score lower than the 57th percentile. Amazing. When you look at history and you see that Morocco had a "partnership/protection arangement" with the French and that their King still both reigned and ruled, with Moroccans in the National Assembly in Paris(no other foreigners have ever represented colonies before) it does mark them out. Interestingly, Morocco's three most celebrated athletes Hicham elGuerrouj(World Record holder in 1500m and 1mile run), Mohammed Mourhit(2 time world cross country champion: runs for Belgium) and Khalid Khannouchi(World Record holder in Marathon run: runs for USA & lives in NY) had an average WISAIC-3 of 172! Astrophysists such as Kip Thorne, Stephen Hawking and Subrahaman Chandrasekar average nearly the same! Berber children scored in the 72nd percentile at a pre-literate age of 3 when it came to spatial reasoning and short term memory testing. They were bested only by children in the Spain's Basque country and in Val Poschiavo a isolated valley Graubunden Switzerland near Italy. The Basques are fascinating. They are not only genetically distinct, like the Berbers and the Graubunden villagers, but retain their unique language which is completely unrelated to any other surviving language. Basques scored on the WISAIC-3 and average score of 137. Again, striking. Not only that, Miguel Indurain 6 time winner of the Tour de France is a Basque as is defending World Marathon champion Abel Anton. The frozen 5500 year old remains of the Italian "Iceman" who made much press in 1995-96 is an ancestor to Berbers, Basques and certinaly many alpine peoples. Though his "people" created no great "civilizations"(In your words "didn't do anything" his body showed signs of acupuncture, had a mouth with no cavities, and had bone strength not found in human remains form "civilized" agricultural state-societies. His long bow that he died with would have routed a Chin Chinese Army several millenia later had there been more "Icemen." I have plenty of info if you're interested. Arthur: (hey steve, you've not been passing these on to h-bd, but what do you think of this guy? ever heard of his institute? A european issues forum guy from Europe??) OK, you've piqued my curiosity. What _does_ the pasteur institute do, it's probably not about techniques for sterilizing drinks. Most biodiversity types don't have data that shows that eastern europeans have pretty much the same IQ regardless of ethnicity or religion. According to your claim there is nothing to differentiate between IQ of Jews, French, Gypsies, or Germans. Among American ethnic groups, only the Jews stand out as to high IQ, though it is less well known that other religious groups also score well above average. I'm not much of a nationalist, the real race nuts are the politically correct types that promote affirmative action, and attacking Americans of European descent that you are so fond of. I'm considered a race traitor by most Asian activists in America. I have noted on my page that Gypsies in Seattle don't score any different than other whites, even though Seattle white children are unusually affluent with adult college rates approaching 50%. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Reilly Celba" To: "Arthur Hu" Cc: "Human Biodiversity" Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 3:17 PM Subject: Re: > Actually, only two auto manufacturers are japanese(Honda& Toyota), the > rest are foreign owned. Since the auto industry does not have the same > value added profit ratio as banking, insurance, bioresearch,specialty > manufcturing etc, and is reliant upon the polluting steel/metals industry, > the swiss are way ahead. Just look, they have higher incomes, and many > more Nobel prize winners. > As a Jew, I find it odd that you seperate "Jews" from "whites." Judaism is > a non-evangelical, hereditary cult. Most "Jews" are found in Eastern > Europe(Askenazi) and in North Africa/Iberia(Sephardic), many live in the > Horn of Africa(Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia). None of the various > populations have anything in common with each other other than > religion(which varies in its orthodoxy) and their humanity. The > seperation of "Jew" into an ethnic/racial catagory only began in the late > 19th century. My family and myself view ourselves of Slovak ethnicity. > Only in America do Jews see themselves as a distinct ethnic group. Only > goose-stepping fascists in Europe see Jews as a distinct ethnic group. > In the secular, post-soviet world, eastern Europeans regardless of stated > religious affiliation/association tested the same. At all three levels of > testing. "Jewish success" in America is do to a religious culture that > puts emphesis on family, introspection, study and activism. > "Civilization" is not the mark of intelligence. The American > astrophysist Wheeler determined that state societies prior to the 18th > century failed to improve the health or the longevity of their > citizens(more often than not subjects). State-societies are often > repressive and hinder intellectual growth. An example would be the > rabid-frothing at the mouth group/herd/mob nationalism that you seem to > suffer from. Ultimately sir I believe you need to ask yourself: "Does > this shit I believe make me happy?" Maybe it does. By believing that you > are part of a superior "tribe," your personal greatness is assured: > Passive success. Have you done anything brilliant? You need to ask > yourself. Forest Gump said: "Stupid is as stupid does" he may well have > added "Smart is as Smart does." I thought that you might have wanted to > learn about our work here at the Institute Pasteur, perhaps I was wrong. > Have fun and I hope that your children(bundles of protein born from your > own narcissistic desire to continue your "special" genetic line) bring you > comfort and joy. > The Institute Pasteur is the formost biological/neurological research institution on the entire planet. It was at the Retroviral clinic near Paris where the HIV virus was first discovered and isolated. The Pasteur Institute was founded by Louis Pasteur and was later headed by Marie Curie and her French husband. The Institute Pasteur is financed directly by the French Government and is workshop of Europe's finest biological scientists(13 Nobel Prize winners). Please visit http://bioweb.pasteur.fr/intro-uk.html & http://www.pasteur-lille.fr & http://www.pasteur.fr Once and for all, Europeans score higher average IQ than do East Asians. Of 8500 Shanghainese literate adults and pre-literate students given our battery of tests they scored on average 18 points lower than 8500 Milanese literate adults and students(WISAIC-3 was given to literate adults). I believe that this is a greater discrepancy than exists between European-Americans and Afro-Americans. It way explain why 97% of the world's commercial space launches are carried on European, American, and Russian launch vehicles, while China's Long March 2 is known for it's softwear failures and subsequent crashes(so much for "dominating the electronics industry"). Stick to making uncomplicated, machine stamped consumer electronic subassemblies for VCRs China! Hell, the "technological" Japanese can't launch their overpriced, inefficient H-2 or M-5 boosters without them detonating and raining satellite into the Pacific. TVs can be made anywhere labour is cheap and people are willing to work. Aircraft and gas turbines are solely produced in USA, Europe and Canada. Some subassembly work produced in Asia as govt's try to subsidize production costs to "gain on the west" in that state-centralized crypto-fascist manner Asians have. The highest average IQs in Asia are found in the Indian subcontinent. From a mitrochondiral aspect these people of the subcontinent are far, far more closely related to the Irish than to Han Chinese(may explain why only Asian to ever win the National Geographic Geogrpahy Bee was a Montanan of Pakistani parents. Only Asians to win national spelling bee 2 Indians one Haitian black has won). All other winners were of European origin. Top 400 WISAIC-3 IQ scores also European(4 of East Indian origin raised in UK). Finally, JEWS are NOT to be compared to Gypsies. Gypsies are a Dravidian people originally of South India who moved into Eastern Europe in the later Middle Ages(14th and 15th centuries). Judaism spread to North Africa and Europe in the 1st century following the battle of Masada. Those that took part in "the diaspora" were estimated at only 27,000 and quickly, like many entering the Roman heartland form the paerphery of Classical World became indistinguishable from any one else(much like modern Brasil where average IQs are higher than in China as well). The concept of "the jew" as an alien "race" is completely new; last century or less. A weird marraige of rising European nationalism confronting an international, business religious sect(jewish business success in Medieval World solely do to laws against usury for christians), and the age old desire for a religiously homogenous Europe. So the Jew as "other group" was born out of religious frusteration and a new rationale to explain this non-conversery adamance by declaring them an "alien people." Completely social. In America, what are referred to as "Jewish features" are actually East European features, it's jsut that East Europeans arriving in America were dispropotiately Jewish in many areas due to the progroms in Russia which were acting as a catalyst for emigration. As a gentically more intelligent Chinese you've known all of this for years, and I'm mearly wasting your time. I am very, very sorry that years of testing, have destroyed your and many other self-important/self-empowered Asians myths about themselves. However, it does explain how 700,000,000 Chinese(pop in 1840s) were defeated by a small band of the Royal Navy and their Opium Smuggling allies, why Asia was partitioned into "zones of influence" why Japan was humiliated in WW2(couldn't they do enough math to realize they didn't stand a chance, look at the production capabilities you egomaniancs?), why most Asians live in poverty, why China's living standards are lower than those in 3 African countries, why Europeans and Americans control nearly 80% of the world's GNP, have the highest living standards, control the vast majority of the world's capital flows(stock assets of Japanese multi-antionals 40% owned by holders in Europe and N.America, why more Asians emigrate to N.America and Europe each day than Europeans emigrate to Asia in 10 year periods. I could go on and on, but I really don't have the time to lecture a people so genetically beneath me. Stick to the laundramats and the Sub-Gum restaurants I'll stick to controlling the world financial system and the media form my subterreanean lair with all of the other "master race East European Jews." Oh yeah, do you really think pointing nuclear arms at people is a sign of intelligence? Damn. I think it's a sign of fear, weakness and stupidity. I understand China though; surrounded by gentically more intelligent Russians, Indians, and Americans who all have even more martial capability(even India has a blue water navy, China don't) I can understand their manic desperation and concern Arthur : Whoah, who's getting into tossing insults here? I'm more than willing to acknowledge European claims to world dominance, and nearly acknowledge that they probably earned it, still I'll pass on these claims of Asian IQ inferiority to my friends and see what they think From: Premise Checker Date sent: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [h-bd] Physicist IQ [ Double-click this line for list subscription options ] On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Gregory Cochran wrote: > Next question: what if they're smarter and still do worse as a > society. Is this a consequence of history, or is it a consequence of > the distribution of intelligence and personality traits in east Asia? > Maybe it's _because_ they're smarter - for all I _know_, a higher > average IQ seriously screws up a society. Or it might be that other > distributional differences, more in personality than intelligence, shape > the likely societal outcomes in negative ways. > > I can imagine a lot of ways (of this sort) in which a society could > fail, indeed be almost doomed to failure, while individual emigrants > from that society would shine in the U.S. Phil Rushton has the answer. East Asians are more civilized (high on family values) than we are. I say they are too civilized for their long-term collective good. Europeans were just too warlike to ever settle into an Empire, which the Chinese did in their early days. Remember the studies of East Asian vs. Caucasian babies in the late 1960s. Put a towel on the face of a Caucasian baby and he'd angrily throw it off. Put one on an East Asian baby and he'd just lie there. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and East Asians are not temperamentally willing to pay it. From: John Derbyshire Date sent: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 08:32:53 -0400 Subject: RE: [h-bd] Physicist IQ > Once and for all, Europeans score higher average IQ than do East Asians. May I recycle an observation I previously made on the list, when the issue of African IQs (apparently having a mean in the 70s) was discussed? Someone who had lived much in Africa--probably Scott MacEachern--said that everyday encounters with Africans did not bear this out--they just didn't SEEM like morons. My own experience of living among country Chinese is the mirror-image of this. They seemed to me almost universally dull-witted. A friend (Chinese) who was a schoolteacher in a small Chinese town tells me there was a high proportion of retards among his pupils, which he attributed to inbreeding. John Derbyshire Ron Unz here: Greg Cochran's points are absolutely correct, and well taken. If tests say one thing, and reality consistently says another, you throw away the tests not the reality. BUT China has now had perhaps the world's highest economic growth rate for the last couple of decades; Hong Kong, Singapore, Korea, and Taiwan have risen from miserable poverty more rapidly than almost any nations in human history; and East Asians seem to do exceptionally both well in America and in other foreign countries. So, while conventional tests may or may not have validity, the results they generate have at least surface plausibility. Similarly, if Morocco today dominated the world economy, I'd take more seriously the non-standard tests used by Arthur's friend. On the other hand, the IQ-determinists on this list should note that one reason for the astonishing growth in East Asian wealth has been its amazingly low initial base. A poorly designed social or economic system can easily keep smart people shackled in poverty for centuries. For example, American Jews are generally known as smart and as good businessmen; but Israel's socialistic economy led their cousins to decades of economic stagnation. Similarly, general traits of personality, character, or behavior---whether cultural or genetic---can easily impact the nature of a society. If Europeans tend to be more adverturesome or daring than Asians, that can impact European societies for good or for ill, just as various combinations of physical, mental, and emotional characteristics might impact one's success as an actor, physicist, farmer, or criminal. > -----Original Message----- > From: Gregory Cochran > [mailto:gmcochran@compuserve.com]On Behalf Of > Gregory Cochran > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:52 PM > To: arthur hu > Cc: Gregory Cochran; > il_leone_uno@yahoo.com; jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU; > h-bd@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [h-bd] Physicist IQ > > > Message text written by "arthur hu" > >You bring up a very good point, if > Asians Americans are so darned smart > and successful, why don't they > win proportionally even more awards, > and why don't we rule the world > instead of, as you point out, Irish > white guys? < > > > I think the guy's toking. But > your formulation of the question is > just fine. It's a reasonable question. > Over the past five hundred years, > which is a fairly big data set, every > single society in East Asia has done > a perfect imitation of _not_ being as > smart as West Europeans. They just > haven't done as well in everyday > political management, in innovation, in > warfare. > Ron thinks that only a fool could > doubt that East Asians have a > certain margin of intellectual > superiority over Europeans, but > psychometrics support this - although > not terribly strongly ( considering > the Flynn effect) - history doesn't. > I read psychometrics _and_ > history. I suspect that one must > understand both marcher states and > regression to the mean, Guadalcanal and > genetic oad, to even start on this > problem... > Is it foolish to at least wonder > if history tells us more than > psychometrics? If the same trend were > to go on for five hundred more > years, would anyone wondering if East > Asians were really superior _still_ > be a fool? > > Next question: what if they're > smarter and still do worse as a > society. Is this a consequence of > history, or is it a consequence of the > distribution of intelligence and > personality traits in east Asia? Maybe > it's _because_ they're smarter - for > all I _know_, a higher average IQ > seriously screws up a society. Or it > might be that other distributional > differences, more in personality than > intelligence, shape the likely > societal outcomes in negative ways. > > I can imagine a lot of ways (of > this sort) in which a society could > fail, indeed be almost doomed to > failure, while individual emigrants from > that society would shine in the U.S. > > > Gregory Cochran > > >\\ "Ron Unz" Date sent: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:20:24 -0700 Subject: RE: [h-bd] Physicist IQ [ Double-click this line for list subscription options ] Arthur, Thanks for passing on one of the more interesting recent postings. Your new friend certainly seems like a typically excited H-BD type... Anyone who doesn't believe that East Asians aren't at least somewhat smarter than Europeans is just a fool. And it's interesting that your friend's own special tests---which apparently showed Chinese living in Shanghai to be almost borderline mentally-retarded---also prove that groups of Moroccans are the smartest people in the world. Never realized that Morocco was filled with geniuses... Also didn't realize that Bill Gates, Paul Allen, and Warren Buffett were all Irish Catholics. Are they? Perhaps you should ask Steve to put your friend on the H-BD list. I suspect he'd generally feel quite at home here, and provoke much interesting controversy. Best, Ron Arthur Related, I've always wondered about the "practical" literacy level of Asians. I've run across countless Asians who are utterly incapable of deciphering a road map, my wife had to physically drive a friend on the actual route several different times to convey how to get from here to there, and wanted to get her father a cell phone because he would be utterly incapable of figuring out where the nearest pay phone would be. How many people on this list know that on the national Literacy test, that if you factored in years of education, Asians did just as poorly as Black Americans on "document" literacy, stuff like reading TV listings, bus schedules. It would be very simple to come up with "American" IQ tests that would absolutely baffle most Asians. The other amazing thing is how Asian women can concoct an entire feast by memory, but be utterly useless in even deciphering the microwave directions on a TV dinner which requires you to remove part of the cover, x min, and then put something back and do y min more. Americans with their so-called low-IQ are educated backwards and forwards how to use the yellow pages, read the newspaper, drive a car, and even cook (or they used to) with home economics. The military is an excellent example of an institution that bends over backwards to make use of average to below average IQ people to dominate the planet. Perhaps this is the strength of the American education system which puts much value on the education of John and Jane Q Average than the Asian approach of trying to produce the smartest kids possible, and flunking everybody else at their appropriate levels. On 27 Jun 01, at 13:31, Gregory Cochran wrote: > Message text written by John Derbyshire > > > My own experience of living among country Chinese is the mirror-image of > this. They seemed to me almost universally dull-witted. A friend > (Chinese) "Pierre van den Berghe" The Institut Pasteur is a bit like the Center for Disease Control in the USA. It is a highly prestigious bio-medical research institute financed by the French government, famous for developing vaccines, doing epidemiological studies, identifying viruses, combating tropical diseases, and such, throughout the world. ----- Original Message ----- From: Arthur From: SailerEgroups@aol.com Date sent: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:50:42 EDT Subject: Re: [h-bd] Physicist IQ To: arthurhu Chinese and Nobels: My opinion is that it's too early to come to much of a conclusion about whether Chinese tend to lack that special something that makes the difference between an excellent scientist and a great one. I'm more struck by the very bad Japanese performance in Nobel Prizes, after they got off to a good start in the Forties. I don't know what accounts for that, but it definitely stands out. Steve S.