g:\doc\web\2000\05\revoke.txt In a message dated 4/27/00 10:12:13 AM, rparkany@BORG.COM writes (responding to Jack Schmidt): << How did kids used to learn algebra? >> Jack, The answer to your question is simple. Most high school kids didn't learn much math in the "good old days." Many kids who "passed" the courses called "algebra" and "geometry" did so because teachers had the flexibility to award grades of "D" and "C" for those kids who knew a bit of it, but not really much. There was, and is, absolutely nothing wrong with that. A closer examination of the hypocrisy of the "standards" movement will show that it was always necessary to have the "C" and "D" grades. How can we grind that fact into the eyes of those who bash teachers and schools nowadays? I would prefer to do it by making the simple demand that the current political practitioners apply the "standards" they are promoting for others to themselves -- especially in math. As RAP notes, a large number of people here (on ARN) hit DELETE when math is discussed. Since the test stuff we're always talking about here requires some math to understand, we're in a bit of difficulty. That's probably one of the reasons why the witch doctors of "standards" and "accountability" have gotten so far in recent years. [Logic certainly hasn't had much to do with all this. Remember the Reagan era claims that our "rising tide of mediocrity" was going to sink our economy in the wake of Japanese and German miracles and commie craftiness? We now have the most productive economy in world history. But William Bennett and The Heritage Foundation still haven't thanked me, my fellow teachers, or our public schools for making America great. Japan and our other rivals flubbed the game somehow, but we haven't been thanked -- let alone gotten credit for winning the Cold War and the economic war...AARGH!]. Back to this thread. Lack of basic math knowledge is still a problem in society. I would locate the problem elsewhere than in the classrooms where most of our 14 - 18-year-olds presently learn. People can function quite well with only the most basic (say, baseball standings and simple statistics) versions of math (as many of the people on this list would admit, if candor were complete). Unfortunately, many social realities (including the mathematical bases of "standards" and "accountability") are now a bit beyond those simple-minded and simplistic realms that bring us the three most common daily forms of math -- public opinion polls, sports data, and (recently) stock market graphs and trend data. Some of the recent hysteria over stock prices (versus "value") might be rooted in many young people's inability to understand long-term mathematical realities. I think it's a bit more Biblical (like greed) than pedagogical or mathematical, but we can have varying explanations. Should we pursue just one model here and mandate it for our national math curriculum? It could get very arcane. That discussion could easily take us all the way back to some Von Neumann games theory and other stuff that would leave many of our most patient colleagues here on ARN glazed over (even if it would also help them pick the right mutual fund for long term sanity). Is there a low level of math knowledge in the United States today? Yes But compared to what? Is that low level generally sufficient for most people to function as productive citizens? Yes and No. Is the general level of math knowledge in the population as a whole higher than it's ever been? Yes. Is that higher level of math knowledge generally the result of improvements in our public school math programs and in the abilities of our public school math teachers? Yes. Will this ever be a perfect world? So we have a relative problem, not one of absolutes. The problem is not one that's going to be resolved in 162 games and some playoffs, like the American League pennant race this year (although America longs to make every social reality that simplistic). We're not going to solve "the math problem" by denying kids who don't get to the quadratic equation (or the Pythagorean theorem) at a mastery level a high school diploma. I use those two objectives because they seem to be the watersheds in introductory algebra and plane geometry in high school. This is also proof that we're dealing in realms of fantasy, dominated by politics and public relations -- not by pedagogy and human relations. If a "standard" requiring mastery of algebra and geometry to those levels (quadratic equation and Pythagorean theorem) be the case, then we should apply the "standard" retroactively to all of the politicians who promote those "standards" requiring lots more math. Let's test them -- as well as all these kids who are currently being screwed by "standards." Let's revoke the politicians' (and "educators'") high school diplomas (and all the degrees they've gotten since high school that began with that high school diploma) if they don't "pass" the level of math they've now mandated for all our kids. If most Chicago public school administrators, most Chicago politicians, and all of Chicago's present school CEOs, school board presidents, and mayors were required to pass the first semester CASE "Algebra" test they gave here in January to our 40,000 or so 9th graders, Richard Daley, Paul Vallas, Gery Chico, and their colleagues would flunk. We'd at least clean house and be able to start over. In their hypocrisy, however, they mandate for others (and for the children of others) what they don't apply to themselves (and to their own children). Neither Paul Vallas (a "numbers" guy who is really a political hack, meaning that he was a "budget director" but never qualified to do heavy numerical lifting or other CPA-level stuff) or Richard Daley (a lawyer who doesn't know much law, but got through high school, college, and law school thanks to the "social promotion" he now derides) can handle this stuff. Mayor Daley, CEO Paul Vallas, and others in their realms also have families full of generally nice, very average kids. An elitist might call their reigns a "triumph of mediocrity" (with a heavy dose of public relations). Someone might also argue that Chicago's "education mayor" and "education leaders" are the nation's best example of how the "rising tide of mediocrity" noted in 1983 peaked here a few years ago, when Daley took over America's third largest public school system. But before we hammer mediocrity (and mediocrities) and praise "excellence" (in those SAT and IQ score senses), let's take a close look at the kinds of public performance we get when we make an oily Fulbright "Scholar" with an Ivy League law degree President of the United States. Our two academically mediocre, linguistically languishing, and math-challenged Chicago guys (Paul Vallas and Rich Daley) have become nationally famous by bashing teachers, kids and schools on the basis of these "standards." It's their right to be both English- and math-challenged. The problem comes when they go after the children of others, imposing hypocritical "standards" and "accountability" programs they don't measure up to themselves. But the solution is not to replace them with people who made higher scores in communications and passed (and actually know) pre calculus. We have to examine the whole crazy basis for these claims in the first place. Isn't this hypocrisy ever going to become clear enough for people to see in its simplicity? Sharon and I enjoyed covering the AERA convention last week. New Orleans was fun. Then I woke up in Chicago this morning with the temperature outside at 38 degrees. George Schmidt -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the ARN-L list, send command SIGNOFF ARN-L to LISTSERV@LISTS.CUA.EDU.