f:\doc\web\2000\03\meier.txt John, this makes good sense. Thanks for showing up at the forum. I'm not completely comfortable with Saxon, but the homeschoolers worship it, and at least it is inspired as an improvement over traditional, not an attempt ot blow it up as NTCM is. We CAN have reform that is more than just going back in time, but we have to differentiate between improved traditional and just blowing it up in search of a socialists utopian ideal. And again, I think we need to take advantage of the opposition from the far fuzzy left to dismantle the bureaucratic middle which is pushing standards-based son-of-OBE reform. We won't be able to get rid of Bergeson on the basis of the homeschool mom right, especially with so many WA republicans backing 1209 state mandated "reform", including Carlson supporters. We have to bring in the left on this one, so that we can have a fair fight once we've killed Marc Tucker's beast. That's also a good libertarian position, since they're not afraid to take in traditional left-wingers. We'll have to get Carlson converted over to the same "religion" of ed-reform as evil as Hochstatter before he'll be any good against Bergeson. Ditto Libertarian leaders who are still dismissing me as some kind of a flaming nutcase (like they're in a position to call the kettle...) None of whom currently has any people in WA complaining but we can change that. The Seattle NAACP said they'd hear me speak, but appear to have dropped the ball on that so far. Remember who is against the WASL style tests: - MALDEF (Mexican NAACP) texas - NAACP Texas - Alfie Kohn - (gag!) Ted Sizer - Fairtest None of whom currently has any people in WA complaining but we can change that. The Seattle NAACP said they'd hear me speak, but appear to have dropped the ball on that so far. From: "John Hall" To: , "Jim Spady" , "Andrew J. Coulson" "Marjorie Meyer" Date sent: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:21:55 -0800 Send reply to: wa-ed-deform@egroups.com Subject: [wa-ed-deform] Re: Alfie Kohn on "The Deadly Effects of Tougher Standards" [ Double-click this line for list subscription options ] Here is a jewel (a good one, I'm not indulging my taste for sarcasm this time) When it comes to difficulty level, my guiding star is my friend Deborah Meier's comment, which she called Meier's Mandate: "No student should be expected to meet an academic requirement that a cross-section of adults in the community cannot." Kohn's corollary to Meier's Mandate is: "People who talk piously about making schools competitive in the 21st century and intensifying accountability and standards should not merely be required to take those tests themselves, but to have their scores published in the newspaper." ============================= I thought the Alfie Kohn made several useful points: 1) Differentiate between Horizontal and Vertical Standards. Horizontal standards cover how teachers teach. The battle between the NCTM and Mathematically Correct is a battle over Horizontal standards. So is the OBE behavorist goals vs. the skills orientation of E.D. Hirsch. The Vertical Standards is where you have a high stakes test that says "work harder". [Of course, I completely disagree with where he would come down on these issues. I trust MC, not NCTM. I'm fond of Core Knowledge.] [Arthur, you might profit from integrating that distinction into your vocabulary.] 2) The reaction to test measured accountability might induce teachers to act in ways that were counterproductive to student learning. 3) Social promotion is better for an individual child than retension. [Therefore, I conclude that ending Social promotion can only be justified if in fact the policies that end Social Promotion increasing the performance of most kids on the lower levels of achievement so that neither retension nor Social promotion is an issue. Example: Going from 10 students/yr being socially promoted to 0 social and 1 retension might be OK, but if the result is 10 retensions / yr you haven't done anyone any favors. The third alternative, which I would prefer, is aggressive tracking.] ============================= On the other hand I simply don't buy his assault on a fact rich cirriculum, or on standard norm referenced testing. Perhaps I can suggest a compromise. By the time someone hits 9th grade, you should be able to seperate those who just aren't getting it from everyone else. Take everyone preforming under the 6th grade (exit) median, seperate them, and focus on getting them to an 8th grade level -- denying a diploma to those who don't hit a 6th grade level by the end of 12th grade. The rest you should encourage to go as high as they can. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dale R. Reed [mailto:dale-reed@worldnet.att.net] > Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 8:19 PM > To: Jim Spady; wa-ed-deform@egroups.com; Andrew J. Coulson; Marjorie > Meyer Subject: [wa-ed-deform] Alfie Kohn on "The Deadly Effects of > Tougher Standards" > > > I thought some of you might be interested in what a well-know > liberal thinks > about "Tougher Standards." Dale > > http://www.democracy.org/news.html > http://www.edletter.org/forum/ > Alfie Kohn on "The Deadly Effects of Tougher Standards" > Every month, the Harvard Graduate School of Education invites a number > of educators, researchers,community activists, and policymakers, from > across the country to talk about such topics as school violence, > multiple intelligences, teaching science, and the politics of school > reform. We are pleased to be able to provide you with an edited > transcript of some of these talks. Below is an edited transcript of a > talk that took place at the Harvard Graduate School of Education on > November 3, 1999. For easier reading, we have divided the transcript > into the following sections: --- $ dale-reed@worldnet.att.net > Seattle, Washington USA $ > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget. > Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already > registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here: > http://click.egroups.com/1/2623/2/_/8573/_/954130948/ > > -- Check out your group's private Chat room > -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=wa-ed-deform&m=1 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget. Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here: http://click.egroups.com/1/2623/2/_/8573/_/954141727/ -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar! -- http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=wa-ed-deform&m=1